Rodimus recently accused our esteemed Brother Marwil of hypocrisy for quoting Tertullian in favor of Blessed Mary as the New Eve, only to quote St. Jerome (who criticizes Tertullian as not belonging to the Church) in favor of the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mary. Thus, according to Rodimus, Marwil is engaging in Church Father-hopping and hypocrisy.
First, a few historical facts:
1) Quintius Septimius Florens Tertullianus was born c. 160, and converted to Catholicism in 195 AD. Around 200 AD he was ordained a priest.
2) Tertullian's Catholic period lasted for about 11 years (195 - 206 AD). It is his writings from this period that are mostly quoted by Catholic theologians and writers as witnesses to the steadfast doctrine of the Church.
3) Beginning in 206 AD, Tertullian began to be dissatisfied with the "laxity" of the Roman Church, and fell into the Montanist heresy. A few years later, Tertullian formed his own sect, the Tertullianists. The Montanist and Tertullianist heresies taught, among other things, that some sins can never be forgiven at all by bishops and priests. Tertullian died in 220; more than 200 years later, his last remaining followers were converted by St. Augustine to the Catholic faith.
4) The writings of Tertullian c. 206-220 fall within his heretical period. However, just as 1+1=2 does not become wrong simply because it is uttered by an idiot, so not everything Tertullian wrote in 206-220 can be considered as heretical. Thus, where the teachings of Tertullian even in his Montanist period are in complete conformity with the writings in his Catholic period, the relevant quotes may still be cited as witnesses to apostolic teaching.
To pick an analogy: no Protestant divine worth his theology degree would say that either Martin Luther or John Calvin is infallible in all things. Indeed, most Protestants would say that they taught major errors in this or that area of doctrine. Nevertheless, most Protestants still draw from the writings of these Reformers for inspiration and learning, because the fact that they committed errors here or there does not (in their view) vitiate the fact that they were "right" on so many other things.
So, isn't this "pick and choose"? No, it is not.
In citing the Church Fathers, five things ought to be kept in mind:
A) Individual Church Fathers are not infallible. We Catholics never cite a particular Church Father because we think he is infallible, and because a citation from him is of its nature irrefutable. Even St. Augustine -- considered by Roman Catholics as the greatest of the Fathers -- was not infallible in all things.
B) Rather, when we cite the Church Fathers, it is in the context of what we call the "Consensus Patrum", or the Consensus of the Fathers. The Consensus Patrum may be defined as the broad agreement among the great majority of the Church Fathers, from the very first Apostolic Fathers down to the last Church Fathers (generally held to be St. Bede the Venerable in the West and St. John Damascene in the East), on the truthfulness, reliability and apostolic origin of certain teachings.
C) Thus, when we cite the Fathers on this or that issue, they are cited not so much because of their individual authority, but because their testimony on a certain doctrine constitutes yet another link in the golden chain of testimonials stretching from one generation of Fathers down to the next, proving that a certain belief is indeed that which "has been believed everywhere, always, by all" (St. Vincent of Lerins, Commonitorium, #6). Indeed, as St. Vincent of Lerins further declares in the same paragraph:
"For that is truly and in the strictest sense Catholic, which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity, if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is manifest were notoriously held by our holy ancestors and fathers; consent, in like manner, if in antiquity itself we adhere to the consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors..."
D) In proving the antiquity and universality of a particular doctrine, and the consent of the body of the Christian faithful to it, it may even be useful (albeit not necessary) to quote heretics and dissidents who testify to the truths of Catholic doctrine -- for the fact that even these enemies of the Church are forced by their own convictions to testify to the truth of Catholic teaching, is an added motive to believe in the worthiness of these teachings. Thus, Catholics do not hesitate to point out the sayings of the first Protestant Reformers on the Blessed Virgin Mary. All the more reason, then, for Catholics to quote from people such as Tertullian, who at least spent part of his life as an ardent defender of the Church.
E) Finally, to the charge that the Church Fathers do not agree on all things; where there are serious disagreements among the Church Fathers, one must have recourse to the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, which definitively settle what is correct doctrine and what is not. Far from rendering superfluous the testimonies of the Fathers, the testimonies of the Church Fathers to the truth of a teaching of an Ecumenical Council BEFORE that Council was ever held, proves that said Council did not invent a novel teaching, but merely ratified and confirmed the tradition handed down from one generation of Church Fathers down to the next.
Thus, the reason why the Fathers are always read not in isolation, but always in the context of the testimony of all the other Church Fathers. Where sufficient Church Fathers from the very first century of the Church down to the sunset of the Patristic age (c. 8th century) testify to the truthfulness of a certain teaching, then we may be certain that it is the authentic tradition handed down from the Apostles. To repeat: a single quote from a Church Father is never sufficient or decisive in itself, but an unbroken chain of testimonies from one Father to the next is not to be contradicted.
When Brother Marwil cites Tertullian, it is not because Tertullian is an infallible authority. Rather, the value of Tertullian lies in the fact that he is one of the links in the unbroken chain of Patristic testimonies to Mary as the New Eve. His testimony is, to use the terminology of St. Vincent of Lerins, one of the proofs of the antiquity and universality of early Christian belief in the exalted state of the Blessed Virgin.
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Fr. Abe,
ReplyDeleteSalamat sa Dios sa balita na si Rudimos sy humingi ng tawad dahil sa mali niya sa kanyang interpretation sa Biblia... at salamat rin sa inyo dahil tinanggap ninyong lahat ang kapatawaran kay Rudimus..
Dahil maganda na ang climate ng dalawang panig... so dapat itoloy ang friendly debate!!!!
Fr. Abe salamat sa reply mo sa akin...
At sa uulitin ko... dapat matukoy ang debate para makita talaga ng madla ang tunay na doctrina...
Regards,
G-one
Thank you Bro. G One for your prayers and support. I think the good resolution of this fiery exchanges is due to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary and to the prayers of countless Catholics who are reading all our Blogs from all over the world.
ReplyDeleteConcerning the debate I think the invitation of Bro. Mars to debate Rodimus is still there and it is up to Rodimus to accept it or not.
God bless you Brother.
Fr. Abe,
ReplyDeleteAng maipapayo ko kay Rudimus na mag review muna sya ng Logic At Argumentation/Debate.... Kasi parati syang gumagamit ng fallacious statement para lang maka sagot sa mga evidensya ni atty. Marwill...
Mukhang disperado na itong si Rudimos o dikaya'y wala talagang alam sa Logic At Argumentation/Debate??
Fallacy of Non Sequitor ang ginamit ni Rudimus....
Regards,
G-one
Dear Bro. G-One,
ReplyDeleteIndeed, you are a warrior for the faith.
Bro, inasmuch as I want to celebrate with you as a comrade in arms yet I have to tame my emotions in order not to hurt Rodimus furhter on a personal level.
For sure the guy must be very hurt and is down. There is a saying that in a fair fight once your opponent is already down we don't have to kick him on the ground. So, that is why I accepted his apology and refrain from further issuing thrusting statements.
Let us give the guy a breather that he deserves because our goal is the salvation of souls and not the destruction of one's dignity and honor.
God bless you Bro. Thank you for your wonderful job in defending the faith in Cebu.
Fr. Abe,
ReplyDeletesorry Fr ha... kahit na humingi si Rudimus ng apology, ay hindi ko parin palalampasin ang kanyang pang-aaliposta ng Ina ng Santa Iglesia Catolica!!!
Nag post na ako sa kanyang blog ng challenge sa isang (personal) public debate...kahit saan mang lugar!
Sorry po Fr. Abe, ngunit akoy naiinis na talaga nitong si Runimus kasi natatalo na nga laban sa inyong lahat(Bro. Cenon, Atty. Marwill at Ikaw Fr. Abe)--ay sigi parin sya ng sigi sa pangtutuligsa...
Ni ayaw ngang humarap sa Debate, eh...
Sorry po Fr. Abe, peru dapat isabi koto sa iyo: Mataas lang ang limang tanong tumba na yan si Rudimus sa debate namin...
Ang Tema: "Patutunayan ko na ang mga kapatid ni Cristo na binanggit sa Biblia ay kinsmen ni Cristo ayon sa mababasa sa Biblia at Referencia"
Sorry talaga Fr. Abe...
Regards,
G-one
Dear Bro. G-One,
ReplyDeleteIts alright. I understand you. Kasi just like me you've been hurt by the barrage of attacks against the Virginity of the Blessed Mother.
It is my personal choice that after an intense exchange which resulted to the opponent's apology it is time for me to be more charitable. However, I do not prevent you to challenge Rodimus. It is your right to do so.
I am overwhelmed by your courage for the faith Bro. Keep it up.
siguro pagkatapos nitong debate kung
ReplyDeletesaan natalo itong si 'rodimus' ay dapat alisin na nila sa website nila
na 'cult profiles' sa listahan nila
ng mga kulto ang IGLESIA KATOLIKA..
mga 'bereans' hindi po kulto ang relihiyong katolisismo... pag aralan
po natin ang tunay na mga aral at doctrina ng katolisismo mismo doon sa mga TUNAY NA NAKAALAM, magtanong
po kayo sa mga catholic apologist, kung hindi man kayo sumang ayon ay at least yung tunay na pananampa-
latayang katoliko ang di ninyo
sinasang ayunan hindi lang kung ano
ang akala ninyo.... HINDI PO KULTO
ANG IGLESIA KATOLIKA o yung tinata
wag nyong 'romanism'
Dear Bro. Dencio,
ReplyDeleteActually that is the greatest irony from these Bereans. They are claiming to be the bearer of genuine Christianity yet they themselves are not belonging to the same Church and have varying doctrines from one another.
They have the courage to declared the Catholic Church as a cult it is from the Catholic Church that they owe the existence of the Bible and the establishments of its Canon.
If there is a group that deserves the title cult it must be the fellowships where these Bereans belong. They are newly invented orgranizations set up by their pastors. They are not joining the One and Only Church founded by the Lord Jesus personally through the Apostles instead they have invented new ones of their own.
The Born Again are convincing only if the Catholics are ignorant of their faith but once they face an educated Catholic who studied faithfully his or her faith, they are finished.
dear fr. abe,
ReplyDeleteamen! po sa lahat ng sinulat nyo!
katunayan isa nga ako sa mga naging
'biktima' ng mga di umanong mga
'born again' na yan, salamat na
lang sa walang hangang awa ng DIOS
at sa apologetic sites na ganito
e naliwanagan ang isip ko!
INC, ADD, BORN AGAIN ETC,ETC. lahat
naniniwala na 'bible only' pero
iba-iba ang doktrina at lahat
naniniwala na ginagabayan ng
espiritu santo. kung maniniwala
tayo sa kanilang mga aral ay
lalabas na puro contradiction
ang banal na espiritu...
so pag may nagtanong sa akin,
born again ka ba?
sagot ay " yes i am born again
through baptism and have a
personal relationship with jesus
through the holy eucharist!"
Dear Bro. Dencio,
ReplyDeleteAre you from Metro Manila area? If you are I advise you to be a member of the Defensores Fidei so that you can be further study apologetics and be trained to be Catholic Apologist.
I can sense your love of the Lord and of His Church -- the Catholic Church. Your intelligence is also palpable in your messages. And it appears to me that you've been into the Born Again cult for a while which gives you an advantage because you know them from inside.
Share with us your journey of faith Bro and let us be comrades in arms. Let us link our arms together in order to strengthen our Holy MOther the Catholic Church.
Once you join DFF you will get to know our apologists who are so knowledgeable in matters of faith and in debunking the doctrines of the enemies of the faith.
dear fr. abe,
ReplyDeletetaga metro manila po ako at susundin
ko po ang payo ninyo at kokontakin
ko ang DFF, para naman maka dalo ako
kung may mga darating silang mga
seminar.
kumukuha lang po akong kaalaman tu-
ngkol sa apologetics at bible
study course sa internet.
tulad po ng nangyari sa maraming
pamilyang pilipino ang ilang mga
kamag anak ko ay mga naging
'born again' na. yung kapatid ko
ay agnostiko at yung pamangkin ko
dala ng kabataan ay hindi gaano
pinapansin ang pananampalatayang
Katoliko, so badly needed po ang
apologetics on a national pati na
po sa personal level.
yung journey of faith ko from
Catholic to born again to agnostic
back home to the Catholic Church
balang araw sana maikwento ko din sa inyo...
Catholic websites like this DO MAKE
A LOT OF DIFFERENCE IN PEOPLES LIVES.
salamat po uli....
Dear Bro. Dencio,
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for your willingness to join the DFF apologetic seminars. I think it will be helpful for you to grow deeper in you faith, to be properly trained in Catholic Apologetics and know more the Word of God.
REading materials whether published in books or posted in the web is good and helpful but you still need the guidance and wisdom of those who have thorough experience on the matter. To know which passage to give during a given situation and how to properly counteract the attacks against the faith.
It is also important that we defenders of the faith are praying together, training together and strengthening together. You will not be alone in your journey of faith but you will be build up by your brothers and sisters of the same heart and mind and with the same mission.
God bless you always. I will post in this blog the announcements for our next apologetics seminars. See you then.