Mary and the Apostles inside the Cenacle During the Pentecost
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Brother Arganiosa:
You asked how I got your e-mails. One of you gave them to me and since he asked to reply directly to you this is why I did.
Jorge:
I already asked Atty. Llasos about the e-mail addresses and he confirmed to me that he was the one who gave it to you. I was just inquiring and there is no problem on my part exchanging e-mails with you. But as I have told you I prefer that our discussion be made public because it is in exchanges like this that our readers are learning. They will know your inquiry and your problems concerning our Catholic Faith: Doctrines and Modes of Prayers and they will also get to know our responses and our own questions and problems concerning the Evangelical Faith: Doctrines and Modes of Prayers. We want you to enlighten our readers about Evangelical Faith and I will give my best to enlighten them about the Catholic Faith.
I asked you in my previous response to let me post the response I gave you by saying that if you will prefer to let it remain private I will respect your preference. However, when this e-mail arrived there is no request to do so or any admonition not to share in to the public. So I decided to post it in my Blog.
I have already read your article about Mary's perpetual virginity and replied to that also. I apologize if I have said some things that are offensive.
Jorge, so far nothing offensive as far as I am concerned. You were honest with what you think and feel and I responded with the same honesty. You presented what you think of us and I presented what I think of yours. There is nothing offensive about that; we simply examine the foundation of our Faith and of the things that we do.
I still don't consider the issue or perpetual virginity a necessity for my faith or for the Divinity of Jesus but at least your responses give a more clear picture that helps me understand why you think it is necessary.
It is not a matter of your or mine opinion Jorge. Who am I? And who are you?
Our opinions or personal preferences don’t count here; instead the faith of the Church that the believers of Jesus upheld from Apostolic Period until now. It is not you or me who is the barometer of truth but the One and Only Church founded by Jesus:
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1. Athanasius [the destroyer of Arianism],
2. Cyril of Alexandria [the destroyer of Nestorianism],
3. Jerome [the 1st Translator of the Entire Bible & destroyer of Helvidian heresy],
4. Leo the Great [the destroyer of Eutyches’ heresy],
5. Augustine of Hippo [the destroyer of Manichaean heresy], etc.
believed and upheld the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.
Your position is heretical.
You claimed earlier that the Biblical evidence against the Perpetual Virginity is greater than our claim. Yet, I presented you with armada of Bible scholars supporting our stand and now you will respond with another personal claim. Speaking of Biblical evidence for post partum Non Virginity of Mary, you are not giving us any evidence at all except your biased claim. Biblical scholarship is on the Catholic side on this matter and historical evidence is also overwhelmingly in our favour.
The Champions of Christianity are teaching our position while the heretics find refuge in yours.
About the Divinity of Jesus and Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
Well, what you are thinking about this matter once again doesn’t count Jorge because you were not the one who confronted Arius. The one who fought against that heretic who first denied the Divinity of the Lord is Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria. And sorry for you because the best scholar who defended the Divinity of Jesus is teaching the Catholic position:
Athanasius: "Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary" (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]). [I think he is more credible than you Jorge in understanding the Greek Bible and the relation of Mary’s being Ever-Virgin and the Divinity of Jesus.]
Besides, WHY DID JESUS OUR GOD CHOOSE A VIRGIN TO BE HIS MOTHER? WHY? TO SHOW HIS OMNIPOTENT POWER! TO PROVE THAT HE CAN DO THE IMPOSSIBLE! IN OTHER WORDS, TO MAKE US RECOGNIZE HIS DIVINITY! Mary’s being VIRGIN & MOTHER at the same time under the same respect without violation of the law of nature is something that only God can do. This is to show that the Child Jesus is God and Omnipotent. Mary is living proof of the Divinity of Jesus and essential to that is her Perpetual Virginity. To destroy that Virginity is to loose the living proof that Jesus’ person is no human made but Divine. That is why to attack the Perpetual Virginity is HERETICAL... HERETICAL.
Besides the Divinity of Jesus the Perpetual Virginity of Mary is also a Perpetual PROOF of the VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS.
It seems to be that much of the reasoning for the Early Church fathers to require the virginity of Mary (perpetual) was related to the affirmation of Christ's Divinity. I don't see it as a necessity but I respect their view.
I also respect your view but as you have stated earlier in our exchange we prefer the Biblical Evidence. You failed to give me Biblical evidence Jorge while I showered you with Biblical analyses of Matthew 1:25 disproving your claim. The early Christians who gathered in Ecumenical Councils as One Church composed articles of Faith declaring Mary – Virgin. Great champions of Christian Orthodoxy disprove your reasoning. What credibility can we get out of your mere opinion?
THE GREEK FATHERS, THE EARLY GREEK CHRISTIANS WHO’S LANGUAGE WAS HELLENISTIC AND KOINE GREEK OF THE BIBLE DIDN’T INTERPRET ADELPHOI OR THE SO-CALLED BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF JESUS AS ‘BLOOD BRETHREN’. Yet, the American Evangelicals pretend to be knowledgeable in Greek to claim that it means ‘Biological Siblings’. They are free to dream on!
As for all the issues you mentioned about Evangelists, I am not a fan of any of that; nor do I watch any of those programs.
Having years of experience dealing with Evangelicals and Born Again I have observed that you guys when being asked to be responsible for your own abuses you are dumping your own kind to save your own skin. Now, you are denying them Jorge but no matter what they are Evangelicals like you and therefore they are your kind. Their abuses belong to you and you have to provide an answer why they are doing those things and what is the Biblical Foundation why Evangelicals are doing such things. You are asking about Latin American Catholics I answered you even though I am a Filipino and Asian. I defended before you that our Marian devotees are not doing anything evil: legal, social, moral, spiritual and biblical. I can stand on that. Now, I DEMAND YOU TO PROVIDE BIBLICAL REASONS FOR THE ACTIONS AND ACTIVITIES THAT YOUR EVANGELICAL BRETHREN ARE DOING. Let me see if you can do so.
Usually, you are united in claiming that Bible alone is your sole authority in Faith, and then you are claiming that you are Christians... You are one in questioning or even attacking the Catholic Church [Although I accept that you are an exemption Jorge. You are showing your disagreement in a respectful manner. Thus, you are indeed a Christian gentleman and I admire you for that.]. Yet, once we responded and started questioning your own doctrines and practices you suddenly claim that these fellow Evangelicals are different from you; that you don’t like them; that you are not fond of them.
They are your own Jorge. They are your kind. You have the same feathers. You cannot disown them. I am wondering if ever you are sending them your concerns to stop their hypocrisies on TV as you are doing to our Marian devotees. I am wondering if you have the same courage to denounce the moral and social evils perpetrated by your Evangelists and their adherents on TV or somewhere else.
The information that I mentioned on soap operas is not because I am watching any, but when I was younger and we lived with our Grandmother, she was always watching soap operas so I ended up doing the same for that reason.
Ha, ha, ha... We’ve got the same experience then. On my part it was my mother who was fond of it. But, it seemed we observed different realities. I saw and heard the Latino actors and actresses praying to God while you are claiming that only Mary was being invoked.
Also, I want you to explain to me how come in the TV programs like Soap Operas coming from Evangelical and Protestant countries God is rarely mentioned at all and Sex and Money and Violence are glorified instead. ON MY PART, I PREFER THE LATIN AMERICAN SOAP OPERAS OVER THE AMERICAN MADE ANY TIME. IT IS MORE MORAL AND GODLY. The products of your Evangelical counterparts are immoral and violent and sex-crazed Jorge. So before you criticize Latin American soap operas please check and recheck those coming from your Evangelical favourites. It is like comparing a sinful man with a demon.
It is a generalization.
That is why be more scientific in your presentation of ideas because judgment must not be based on superficial data. Going to Catholic Faith, please continue reading the Catholic Encyclopaedia.
As for the issue of prayers to Mary, I understand your point about intercession and agree to that. The is nothing wrong with praying for each other.
Of course there is nothing wrong with praying for each other. BUT, IF YOU WILL INSIST THAT PRAYERS MUST BE DIRECTED TO JESUS ‘ALONE’ THEN EVERY TIME YOU ASK ANOTHER TO PRAY FOR YOU AND HE DID SO BOTH OF YOU ARE SINNING AGAINST THE LORD BECAUSE YOU ARE VIOLATING YOUR FAITH.
Thus, you should realize that your Evangelical Dogma of “Prayer must be directed to Jesus ALONE” is UNBIBLICAL, ILLOGICAL, IMPRACTICAL AND HERETICAL.
Why do you have to uphold a Dogma or a Teaching that you are violating in practice and you know is contrary to the Faith, Morals and Life of Christians from time immemorial?
SO, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG IN PRAYING FOR EACH OTHER. WHO IS THAT ‘OTHER’? YOUR FAMILY MEMBERS ONLY? YOUR BLOOD RELATIVES ONLY? YOUR NEIGHBORS ONLY? YOUR CO-EVANGELICALS ONLY? YOUR PASTORS ONLY? OR THOSE ON EARTH ONLY?
ARE THOSE IN HEAVEN EXCLUDED FROM YOUR SO-CALLED ‘EACH OTHER’?
The things I said are based on what I have heard many people say. Perhaps, it is a mistake to use those as examples as these people are not what you would consider "practicing Catholics" but just people that got baptized and confirmed in the Church and don't "practice" the faith other than coming to church during "Semana Santa". So, I apologize for generalizing.
I accept your apology.
The Catholic Church is a Universal Church of 1.1 Billion followers. Millions of them are simple folks such as farmers, labourers, carpenters, etc. Some of them are uneducated and poor and therefore are not in position to explain to you the Catholic Faith. Besides, they are not Sola Scriptura people so it is unfair for them to be judged according to Sola Scriptura standards of Evangelicals. Much more, these Catholics are not trained to debate Evangelicals. We are not teaching them to memorize verses to attack your kind and how to respond to your queries. Catholics are peaceful people who tend to live their faith by spiritual and moral practice rather than by being antagonistic to others.
On the other hand, many Evangelical Pastors are teaching their followers to attack the Catholic Faith by giving them ammunitions against us. They bombard their followers with anti-Catholic vitriolic including pure lies such as The Tiara of the Pope has 666 marks on it, etc. I think the best evidence of it is you Jorge. You keep on sending me arguments not based on solid scholarship but purely generalizations that is proper for street talking rather than an educated dialogue. If you are talking to an unschooled Catholic you might lead him away from the Catholic Faith, not because you are right but because you played with the weakness of that Catholic. Now that you are exchanging e-mails with a Catholic priest and a Catholic lawyer so we are more equipped to respond to your questions piece by piece, line by line, word for word, sentence by sentence.
It is very obvious that you have the courage to comment in a public blog on a Catholic site to question the Catholic Faith while your knowledge of Catholic Theology is obviously superficial. I’ve been debating Evangelicals and Protestants for years yet I never bothered to question their faith right in their territory out of respect. I wait for them to come into my site because it is not common Catholic activity to question the Protestants right in their own home.
I appreciate your mails and your visit to our Blog because you are a gentleman and in a way I consider it a blessing because you have chosen to communicate to a priest rather than to the unprepared Catholics.
As I’ve said, in the United States, in Britain and in the Philippines there is now the rise of Catholic Apologetics because we are already getting tired being the punching bags of Evangelicals who cannot appreciate our peaceful and charitable nature. Thus, as you can see in every question that you are giving several answers are coming and I return it with more questions for you to answer. And, I’ve noticed that every time we debunk your claims Biblically and scholarly you are changing to other topics and avoid interacting with our reasoning and evidences piece by piece, line by line and verses for verses.
There is one thing to mention on the issue of the rosary (10 prayers directed to Mary per each to God). Here is from one of your replies to me in the website:
This is typically asked by those who do not know the essence or meaning of the rosary. Just like Castroj1, they accuse us Catholics of paying more attention to Mary because we address TEN Hail Mary’s to her while just ONE Our Father to God. Invariably, Protestants ask why Catholics say ten Hail Mary’s for every one Our Father. Is Mary greater than the Father?
Protestants take Catholics to task for mentioning Mary more than Jesus in the rosary. Well, they should realize that the rosary is primarily a means of devotion to Mary. Even then, the core of the rosary is really Jesus. In the Hail Mary, Jesus is at the center: “blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.”
I have changed the color of the text in your response that I want to emphasize. I think don't like so say that ten Hail Mary's = one Our Father.
This response is from Atty. Marwil Llasos, the author of the article that you have commented.
Please read the text of Atty. Llasos once again. Even though he stated that “It takes ten Hail Mary’s to equal one Our Father” he definitely doesn’t mean that the 10 Hail Mary is actually EQUAL TO 1 OUR FATHER. PRIOR TO THAT HE WROTE: “The ratio of 10:1 (ten Hail Mary’s to one Our Father) actually shows God’s infinite greatness compared to Mary’s finite greatness”. Atty. Marwil Llasos actually says that GOD IS INFINITE while MARY IS FINITE. Thus, he is declaring that Mary is nothing in comparison with God. Surely, the Our Father is far, far superior to Hail Mary so that 1 Our Father is more than enough for 10 Hail Mary.
And, furthermore, I am uncomfortable with saying that we have to pray to Mary 10 times before we can even consider approaching one Our Father.
Once again you are misunderstanding what Atty. Llasos had stated. He is explaining there actually the nothingness of Mary in comparison with Supremacy of God. He simply shows that the 10 Hail Mary’s are leading to Jesus our God and to God the Father.
To prove to you that you committed a misunderstanding of the Rosary, I want to inform you that IN THE DECADES OF THE ROSARY THE OUR FATHER IS BEING RECITED AHEAD OF THE 10 HAIL MARY’S NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. This is the way the Rosary is Recited per recitation:
(1) THE CREED – “I Believe in God the Father Almighty...”
(2) Our Father
(3) 3 Hail Mary
(4) Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit
* Then for each decade the beads start with an Our Father and 1o Hail Mary and ends with 1 Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
THE ROSARY BEGINS WITH DECLARATION OF FAITH TO GOD THE FATHER AND THE RECITATION OF THE OUR FATHER CONTRARY TO YOUR CLAIMS. SO ONCE AGAIN YOUR SUPPOSITION HAS NO FOUNDATION IN REALITY. Any educated Catholic can answer you on that one. Jorge, you are showing to me that you are not really a former Catholic because you are lacking practical know how on distinct Catholic practices. You are creating a barrier on something that is non existent.
WE ARE PRAYING TO GOD THE FATHER FIRST BEFORE WE INVOKED MARY TO PRAY FOR US TO JESUS. IT’S NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND AS YOU ARE CLAIMING.
This is very similar to what I have heard others say and it is the part that makes me uncomfortable. It is equivalent to saying that we always have to first approach Mary before we can even be consider approaching God. Maybe I am misunderstanding your words but it sure seems like it.
Definitely you are misunderstanding his words by being unaware of the actual recitation of the Rosary. You are not aware that God the Father is properly glorified and given the place of honour above any other in Rosary AND EVEN BEFORE WE MENTIONED THE NAME OF MARY. Mary is mentioned in the Rosary but only as a Servant of God whom we are requesting to help us praying to God.
I don't have a problem with asking Mary, the Apostles, others Saints, your priest, pastor, church leader, fellow believers for pray for you and with you. I think there is clear evidence of this in Scriptures.
Well, based on experience most of the Evangelicals do not accept that. Here in the Philippines they are teaching that the souls of the departed are SLEEPING and UNCONSCIOUS. Ha, ha, ha... NO KIDDING.
SO, YOUR CLEAR EVIDENCE IS NOT SO CLEAR AMONG FILIPINO EVANGELICALS. HA, HA, HA... VERY FUNNY ISN’T IT? YOU CANNOT AGREE ON MATTERS OF DOCTRINE PARTICULARLY THE ONE CONCERNING LIFE AFTER DEATH. ACTUALLY, THIS IS A SIMPLE MATTER THAT HAS BEEN SETTLED ALREADY BY CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHY ON THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL! Yet, for many Evangelicals the souls too are dying or sleeping until they are awakened by Jesus in the Second Coming. So, how are the souls of the just in heaven doing by Evangelical standards? SNORING!!!
But I don't think that I must ask my Pastor, Mary or anybody else to intercede for me a number of times before I can even consider praying to God.
The number of times one has to ask others to pray for him depends not on you but on every conscience of each one of us. If you think that you don’t need your pastor to pray for you so be it. Pray to God alone. You can even go to the top of the mountain as Jesus did away from the eyes of others or you can hide in your room. But, you cannot tell us that we are wrong because we are asking the prayers of Mary or of our friends and relatives or fellow Catholics a thousand times if we want to. Or even a million times if we choose to do so.
Don’t tell me that the Bible established a specific number by which it is allowable to ask the prayers of others and then beyond that quantity it is sinful or evil to do so? Chapters and verses please.
The great Anglican writer and Christian apologist C.S. Lewis, in one of his last books, wrote:
". . . devotions to saints . . . There is clearly a theological defense for it; if you can ask for the prayers of the living, why should you not ask for the prayers of the dead? I am not thinking of adopting the practice myself; and who am I to judge the practices of others?" {Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly On Prayer, NY: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1964, pp.15-16}
This is my point. I have heard this from many different people, including you.
Just by getting a Rosary and then ask the people what is the prayer corresponding to each beads is enough to remove your bias against it yet you didn’t perform the practical thing to do. Instead, you relied on words and tried to interpret them into your biased mindset. It is obvious that the result is not favourable to our Faith when in fact THE OUR FATHER IS ALWAYS RECITED FIRST BEFORE THE HAIL MARY’S IN THE ROSARY TO SHOW THAT GOD IS SUPERIOR TO MARY.
The only thing, however, that I am not sure about is whether those Saints that are in heaven, are actually receiving our prayers.
If you are not sure then you have to withhold judgment. How come you have already rejected the Catholic Doctrine when in fact you are not even sure yet whether it is true or not? That is gross irresponsibility. You have made a judgment without solid investigation of the issue at bar.
I don't know if those in heaven have the power (capability) to hear us from earth.
Jorge, it shows that your view of those in heaven is very cheap. I mean, here on earth we can communicate from afar by cellular phones, telephones, web chats, web cams, etc. If we can communicate from afar here on earth how much more in heaven. It is now common that through Mass Media a single event in a place is being seen simultaneously by millions of people from across the globe such as the Olympics or the football World Cup. In heaven the Souls of the Just capability to know is not simply physical and technological but spiritual and that is more powerful than physical... more powerful than TV or Radio or Internet or Cellular Phones.
I don’t know what kind of Bible you are reading Jorge because my reading and re-reading of the Sacred Scriptures never gave me the impression that the Angels and Spirits of the Holy People in Heaven are ignorant of what is happening here on earth. Your mindset is more proper for Jehovah Witnesses than in mainline Christianity.
Now, if you don’t want to believe me then I will present to you the explanation of Evangelical theologians.
Well-known Protestant activist and prolific author
Randy Alcorn, for example, writes with great insight on this question:
6. In heaven, we will be aware of at least some of what is happening on earth.
Another controversial concept, yet again the Bible confirms it:
a. The martyrs in heaven appear to know what is still happening on earth (Rev. 6:9-11).
b. When Babylon is brought down, an angel points to events happening on earth and says "Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you" (Rev. 18:20). Since he specifically addresses them, the clear implication is that the saints in heaven are watching and listening to what is happening on earth.
c. There is "the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting Hallelujah" and praising God for specific events of judgment that have just taken place (Rev. 19:1-5). Again, the saints in heaven are clearly observing what is happening on earth.
d. When heaven's saints return with Christ to set up his millennial kingdom (Rev. 19:11-14), it seems strange to think they would have been ignorant of the culmination of human history taking place on earth. The picture of saints in heaven blissfully unaware of what is transpiring on earth, where God and his angels (and they themselves) are about to return for the ultimate battle in the history of the universe, after which Christ will be crowned king, contradicts clear indications in the context. But even apart from such indications, this notion of heavenly ignorance seems ludicrous.
e. When brought back to earth from heaven, Samuel was aware of what Saul had been doing and what he'd failed to do on earth (1 Sam. 28:18). Unless he was specially "briefed" on this, it follows he must have been already aware of it.
f. When called from heaven to the transfiguration on earth, Moses and Elijah talked with Jesus about his death about to happen in Jerusalem (Luke 9:31). They seem aware of the context they stepped into, of what was transpiring on earth.
g. Hebrews 12:1 tells us to "run the race marked out for us," creating the mental picture of the Greek competitions which were watched intently by throngs of engrossed fans, sitting high up in the ancient stadiums. The "great cloud of witnesses" he speaks of are clearly the saints who've gone before us, whose accomplishments (some of them recorded in the previous chapter) on the playing field are now past. The imagery seems to suggest those saints, the spiritual "athletes" of old, are now watching us and cheering us on from the stands of heaven. (The witnesses are said to "surround" us, not merely to have preceded us.)
h. The unfolding drama of redemption, awaiting Christ's return, is currently happening on earth. Earth is center court, center stage, awaiting the consummation of Christ's return and the setting up of his kingdom. Logically, this seems a compelling reason to think those in heaven might see what is happening on the earth. If in heaven we will be concerned with what God is concerned with, and his focus is on the spiritual battle on earth, why would we not witness his works there?
i. Christ, in heaven, watches closely what transpires on earth, especially in the lives of God's people (Rev. 2-3). If the Sovereign God's attentions are on earth, why wouldn't those of his heavenly subjects be? When a great war is transpiring, is anyone in the home country uninformed and unaware of it? When a great drama is taking place, do those who know the writer, producer and cast-and have great interest in the outcome-refrain from watching?
j. Angels saw Christ on earth (1 Tim. 3:16). There are clear indications angels know what is happening on earth (Luke 1:26; 1 Cor. 11:10). If angels, why not saints? Don't the people of God in heaven have as much vested interests in the spiritual events happening on earth as do angels?
k. Christ said "there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine who do not need to" (Luke 15:7). Similarly, "there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents" (Luke 15:10). Who is doing this rejoicing in heaven, in the presence of angels? Doesn't it logically include the saints in heaven, who would of all people appreciate the joy and wonder of human conversion? (If they rejoice over conversions happening on earth, then obviously they must be aware of what is happening on earth.)
7. In heaven, saints will pray to God and ask things of him, and perhaps intercede for those on earth.
a. Christ, the God-man, is in heaven interceding for people on earth (Rom. 8:34). In at least one case, then, a person who has died and gone to heaven is now praying for those on earth. The martyrs in heaven in Rev. 6:10 pray to God, asking him to take specific action on earth. They are praying for God's justice on the earth, which may have intercessory implications for their brethren now suffering on earth. The sense of connection and loyalty to and concern for the body of Christ of which saints in heaven are part with the saints on earth, would likely be enhanced by being in heaven, not eliminated by it (Eph. 3:15). In any case, we know these are saints who have died, now in God's presence, actively praying concerning what is happening on earth.
b. Prayer is simply talking to God. Angels can talk to God, and therefore angels pray. We will communicate with God in heaven, and therefore we will pray in heaven, presumably more than we do now, not less. Our prayers will be effective given our righteous state (James 5:16).
c. The burden of proof lies on those who would argue saints in heaven cannot or do not pray for those on earth. On what biblical basis would we conclude this?
Rev. 5:8 speaks of the "prayers of the saints" in a context that may include saints in heaven, not just on earth. In any case, if saints are allowed to see some of what transpires on earth, and clearly they are, then it would seem strange for them not to intercede for them. (While we are not told angels pray for people, neither are we told they do not.)
It's a question of assumptions. If we assume heaven is a place of ignorance of or disinterest in earth, then we will naturally assume those in heaven couldn't or wouldn't pray for people here. In contrast, if we believe it is a place of interest in and observation of God's program and people on earth, and where the saints and angels talk to God, then we would naturally assume they do pray to God for those on earth. This is my assumption.
On the other hand, if I ask my Pastor to pray with me I know that he can do so.
What you are trying to insinuate Jorge is contrary to the Bible:
Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
When John the Evangelist was asked by one of the Elders in Heaven, he declared: SIR, YOU KNOW!
That Elder is not an angel but a spirit of one of the Christians who have died. In fact, the Greek word used is Presbyteron which is from Presbyteros = Presbyter, a senior Christian leader. In Catholic parlance, he is a Priest. This is how the famous Strong Bible Dictionary presents the word Elder in Revelation 14:13 -
ĻĻĪµĻĪ²Ļ
́ĻĪµĻĪæĻ, presbuteros
pres-boo'-ter-os
Comparative of ĻĻĪµ́ĻĪ²Ļ
Ļ presbus (elderly); older; as noun, a senior; specifically an Israelite Sanhedrist (also figuratively, member of the celestial council) or Christian “presbyter”: - elder (-est), old.
Then, St. John knows that the soul of the Christian saint in heaven KNOWS. The Bible declares it. Yet, how come Jorge YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT THEY KNOW? How come you are not aware of it? What kind of Bible are you reading? MINE IS THE KING JAMES VERSION WHICH IS THE FAVORITE OF THE EVANGELICALS. Evangelical Theologian and Bible expert Randy Alcorn KNOWS THAT THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN KNOW. C.S. Lewis one of the greatest Christian writers of the past century KNOWS THAT THE SAINTS KNOW. Another Protestant theologian KNOWS THAT THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN KNOWS:
Protestant scholar Jonathan Edwards:
There can be no doubt but that the saints in heaven shall see the flourishing and prosperity of the church on earth; for how can they avoid it, when they shall be with the King himself, whose kingdom this church is, and who as King manages all those affairs? Shall the royal family be kept in ignorance of the success of the affairs of the kingdom?
. . . doubtless they are not ignorant of the flourishing of the church here on earth.
. . . why should their knowledge of the affairs of Christ's kingdom on earth cease, as soon as Christ was ascended?
The saints in heaven are under infinitely greater advantages to take the pleasure of beholding how Christ's kingdom flourishes than if they were here upon earth . . . They can see the wise connection of one event with another . . .(Works of Jonathan Edwards, Vol. VIII,
pp. 540-541)
Can you provide support for the believe that people in heaven (not God who obviously receives all prayers) can actually hear us? Just a curiosity?
DEFINITELY I CAN PROVIDE YOU WITH MANY BIBLICAL CITATIONS PROVING THAT THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN CAN HEAR US. I AM WONDERING HOW COME YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF THOSE VERSES.
Before I give them let me comment on that line you put into parenthesis: "not God who obviously receives all prayers." That line is NOT THE CATHOLIC BELIEF. WE NEVER EVER TEACH THAT IT WAS NOT GOD WHO RECEIVES ALL PRAYERS OR THAT GOD DOES NOT HEAR ALL OUR PRAYERS. When you say that your pastor hears your prayer or receives your prayer requests we are not STUPIDLY CLAIMING THAT BECAUSE YOUR PASTOR RECEIVES YOUR PRAYER REQUESTS OR HEARS YOU IT CONSEQUENTLY MEAN THAT GOD DIDN’T RECEIVE THOSE PRAYER REQUESTS OR DIDN’T HEAR YOU AT ALL. That line of thinking is illogical and stupid because if one receives your prayer it doesn’t mean that the other didn’t receive it as well. If one hears you it doesn’t mean that the other didn’t hear you. You are reasoning from the point of view of Non Sequitur.
In our earlier exchange you were PITTING MARY WITH JESUS, now you are pitting the Saints’ capability to Know and Hear us with God’s own Power to Know and Hear us. That is foul. EVEN HERE ON EARTH THAT IS A PITIFUL ASSERTION. I CAN HEAR PEOPLE TALKING TO ME BUT IT DOESN’T MEAN THAT GOD DOESN’T HEAR THEM SIMPLY BECAUSE I CAN HEAR OTHERS. Ha, ha, ha... You are making me very curious Jorge. Ha, ha, ha...
Gosh, even in human experience of listening that is already debunked. One person speaking can be heard by many other all at once then suddenly you are claiming that when we invoked Mary God doesn't receive our prayers or that He doesn't hear our requests. That is preposterous.
You see, you are bearing me out that many of the Evangelicals today are actually Ignorant of the Bible while pretending to be knowledgeable of it. Not only ignorant of the Bible; they are also arguing illogically and stupidly. I know that these are strong words but I want to be honest as you are honest. I am not saying that you are ignorant and stupid Jorge. Obviously you are an educated gentleman but as you can see you are arguing from an illogical standpoint.
Revelation 5:8-9 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation...
In that passage the Saints and Angels are alive and THEY ARE SINGING AND PRAISING THE LORD. IT MEANS THAT THEY ARE AS ALIVE AS YOU AND ME. NOT ONLY THAT, THEY CARRY WITH THEM INCENSE [ODOURS] WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS. WHO ARE THE SAINTS REFERRED TO HERE: THE CHRISTIANS ON EARTH. To prove to you that the Odours there are INCENSE let me cite Strong Dictionary again:
ĪøĻ
Ī¼Ī¹́Ī±Ī¼Ī±, thumiama
thoo-mee'-am-ah
From G2370; an aroma, that is, fragrant powder burnt in religious service; by implication the burning itself: - incense, odour.
That is the reason why in Jewish and Catholic worships we are using INCENSE. That is Biblical. It represents the prayers of the people on earth being received by the Spirits of the Just in Heaven and they are being brought to God. HOW COME YOU EVANGELICALS ARE NOT USING INCENSE IN WORSHIP?
To prove to you that the Angels and Saints in Heaven bring the prayers of the saints here on earth before God in heaven read this:
Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
This is the main reason that I don't ask them to intercede for me but I do it with my fellow believers.
That is the reason why you are wrong on that one because you failed to grasp that the human spirits in Heaven are our FELLOW BELIEVERS IN GOD STILL AND MUCH MORE SO BECAUSE THEY WORSHIP GOD DIRECTLY, FACE TO FACE IN HEAVEN. Your so-called believers here on Earth could be a closet hypocrite or internally suffering from doubts about God or misinterpreting the Bible BUT THE SOULS IN HEAVEN KNOW GOD MUCH BETTER THAN WE DO. They are the true believers.
Actually, the above passages I gave you show that the Angels and Saints in Heaven are worshipping God THE CATHOLIC WAY: By Kneeling and by using Incense. Unfortunately for you these are TWO THINGS THAT YOU EVANGELICALS ARE NOT DOING. So, our manner of Worship is more Biblical and more Heavenly than yours.
NOW, I WILL BE THE ONE TO ASK YOU FOR CURIOSITY’S SAKE... JUST A CURIOSITY! WHERE CAN YOU FIND IN THE BIBLE THAT THE SOULS OF THE SAINTS IN HEAVEN ARE NO LONGER BELEIVING IN GOD? HOW COME YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTING THEM AS FELLOW BELIEVERS THE WAY YOU ACCEPT YOUR HUMAN COUNTERPARTS HERE ON EARTH? I want Biblical answers Jorge.
Very interesting, isn’t it?
There is evidence for this in Scripture. I don't remember of evidence of people in heaven hearing our prayers. Maybe there is something in the deuterocanonial books?
It means that your studies of the Bible are superficial Jorge. Your pastor is not teaching you deeper and objective study of the Scriptures. You let your Evangelical anti-Catholic bias clouded your eyes to see the genuine message of the Scriptures. The Lord Jesus Himself taught us that the souls of those who died are ALIVE and NOT DEAD OR SLEEPING AS THE EVANGELICALS CLAIM:
Luke 16:22-25 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(1) Both the beggar, the rich man and Abraham are dead. They were buried. Yet they are ALIVE CONTRARY TO YOUR CLAIM.
(2) ‘In Hell he lifts up his eyes’ – The Rich Man can see even in Hell. While Lazarus and Abraham can see from Heaven or in Life After Death.
(3) ‘He cried’... The richman doesn’t simply see, he also didn’t loose his capability of speaking. And Abraham did as well: ‘Abraham said’!
(4) Obviously, these dead people can see, can talk, can hear and can understand each other.
THE LORD JESUS ALREADY REFUTED YOUR CLAIM THAT THE DEAD ARE NOT CAPABLE OF HEARING. O, sorry... you don’t know if they can hear you. Now the Lord informs you that they can see, hear and know. HOPEFULLY, NOW YOU KNOW.
In the Book of Revelation, St. John spoke to one of the Elders in Heaven and he was able to see, hear and understand St. John: HE KNOWS!
UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU JORGE YOU DO NOT KNOW AND YOUR PASTOR SEEMS TO BE UNAWARE OF THIS TRUTH AS WELL BECAUSE HE DIDN’T TEACH YOU. WELL, IF YOU ARE AN EVANGELICAL PASTOR WHAT WILL YOU TEACH TO YOUR FOLLOWERS?
The root of your failure on this matter Jorge is your distorted concept of salvation given by Christ. Evangelical Soteriology is defective and that is the reason why your knowledge of it is superficial. In heaven the souls of the just are blessed with spiritual powers similar to God although not equal with God. The souls of the just are like those of the Angels as the Lord explained:
Luke 20:34-36 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [Definitely Revelation 5:8-9 and Revelation 8:3-4 show that the Souls in Heaven are already seeing God on His Throne and Jesus the Lamb.They are already seeing and worshipping Him in Heaven. Thus, they are in the glorified state.]
The glory to be given to us is great and marvellous. It is far superior than our physical prowess here on earth. Yet your Evangelical pastors led you to think that they are not aware, they do not know, they cannot hear... Gosh... they are projecting to the Blessed Souls in Heaven their own limitations. The souls of the Just in Heaven are perfected by God’s grace:
Hebrews 12:22-23 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect...
By the way, I have nothing against Virginity (but the contrary) or celibacy. I certainly consider them virtues and great things to do for the Lord. As a matter of fact me and my wife had no prior sexual experiences before marriage. She was a virgin "until" we got married and so was I. By the way, I am not traying to imply anything here. I thaught it was a little funny given what we have been discussing...
Don’t worry I do not think that you are trying to imply something about that but definitely your marriage to your wife is not similar to the marriage of Joseph and Mary. Mary was a Virgin not for Joseph to enjoy her body later on but she is a Virgin for the VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS OUR GOD. Mary’s body was prepared for the Messiah and not for any man. Your wife was given for you and your body for her. While Joseph on the other hand, was asked to marry the Virgin in order to make Jesus a legal inheritor of Davidic Kingdom.
IF JESUS HAD OTHER SIBLINGS THEN WHEN HE DIED JAMES OR JOSES WOULD BE THE NATURAL HEIRS TO THE DAVIDIC THRONE. MUCH MORE, WE ALL KNOW THAT JESUS IS NOT A BIOLOGICAL SON OF JOSEPH; IF JESUS HAD SIBLINGS THEN THE MALE BIOLOGICAL CHILD OF JOSEPH IS THE REAL HEIR TO THE THRONE OF DAVID NOT JESUS. THIS IS COMPELLING BECAUSE IN THE BOOK OF PSALM THE LORD GOD PROMISED DAVID THAT HIS THRONE WILL BE INHERITED BY A SON... ‘THE FRUIT OF YOUR BODY WILL I SET UPON THY THRONE’:
"The LORD has sworn to David, A truth from which He will not turn back; 'Of the fruit of your body I will set upon your throne." (Psalm 132:11).
JESUS IS NOT A FRUIT OF DAVID’S BODY BIOLOGICALLY. IF JOSEPH HAD A BIOLOGICAL SON AFTER JESUS THEN THAT SON HAS MORE AUTHORITY ON DAVIDIC THRONE THAN JESUS. What say you, Jorge?
YET, HOW COME JESUS IS THE LAST KING OF ISRAEL WHEN IN FACT, HIS BROTHERS MUST HAVE SUCCEEDED HIM. AND SINCE JESUS DIDN’T BEGET A CHILD BECAUSE HE TOO WAS ‘VIRGIN’ THEN THE SON OF JAMES AND SO FORTH MUST BE THE CONTINUATION OF THE DAVIDIC DYNASTY. How do you answer this Jorge? I’m eager to know your point of view on this matter.
By the way, this is not to brag or to make people raise their brows but me too is a virgin like Jesus, John, Paul and others. I may be a sinful person like you and the rest of humanity but no woman or man can claim that they have possessed or have claimed my body... and my soul. And countless of our faithful priests, monks, religious and consecrated persons have done that and are maintaining that for the sake of the Kingdom of God.
The only thing I have against celibacy is the mandatory requirement that all priests can't marry.
Wrong once again. Research Jorge, research first before you open your mouth or type your fingers. Study, study, study... and learn, learn, learn...
Catholic priests of Oriental Rites such as Byzantine, Ukrainian, etc. are married provided they were already married before ordination. The Anglican clergies who have been accepted by the Holy See are mostly married.
O the rule of celibacy is very Biblical. It is actually a practical application of the Biblical command of leaving one’s family and follow Christ. Now, the family referred to there is not only the parental family but also the marital family. If you will abandon the home of your parents for Jesus it is illogical that you will later establish a marital home while being with Jesus. He, he, he... That is fooling the Lord. If you want to follow the Lord as an Apostle or successor to the Apostles then leave everything behind. If you want to get married then get married and be a dedicated husband and father to your wife and kids.
God of course approves of it because He gave or is giving eternal life to those MALE VIRGINS WHO FOLLOWED THE LAMB – THE GREAT MALE VIRGIN:
Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
One thing is a voluntary act (supported by Scripture) and another a mandatory acts (not supported).
It is voluntary because we are free to accept it or not. I accepted it voluntarily; if I knew that I couldn’t make it I was given the chance to change my mind in about 10 years of preparation for priesthood. Even now, if I believe that I can serve the Lord better in the married state I am free to leave my priesthood and in fact some priests did that. They decided to create their own family and abandon the clerical celibacy. We are free. But, I have freely chosen to stay celibate because I want to be like the Lamb – JESUS THE HIGH PRIEST OF THE ETERNAL COVENANT.
This is similar to what Jesus demanded the Rich Young Man: "Sell everthing you have and give to the poor and come back to follow me.” The young man became sad; he refused to do the requirement of the Lord. So, it was a voluntary refusal. On the other hand Peter, Paul, John... voluntarily accepted it. But, none of them asked Jesus to change His demand because it is difficult. O, No... Not one reasoned that way. As I see it your reasoning is contrary to the mindset of the real Apostles.
Once again your concept of Voluntary is too constricting Jorge. You want to remove the demand instead of viewing it as freedom to accept or to refuse. In short, you want to get the cake and eat it too. It means you want to be an Apostle but don’t want to leave the comfort of your wife’s bedroom. That’s not the Biblical concept of voluntary; that’s refusal to accept the sacrifice required by the Gospel.
The requirements of a pastor/priest/bishop/presbyter in Scriptures are clear and celibacy is not one of them. I don't understand why the requirement and think that one day the Catholic Church will end up removing it.
The Catholic Church is not crazy to remove it. We have been practicing clerical celibacy for centuries and we know its benefits. Our missionaries are free to transfer from one place to another because we are unmarried like Paul and the rest of the Apostles. Our religious missionaries and consecrated virgins are manning our hospitals for the poor, orphanages, rehabilitation centers for drug addicts or prostitutes, training centers, schools, medical clinics for free and at 24 hour service because they are celibate and chaste, they are virgins. We will loose that advantage if we will abandon Celibacy for the Kingdom of God.
Besides if we let our priests get married then we have to implement strict tithing because we will need more money for housing, for the education of their children, for the clothes and make up of their wives, etc. The heart of the priests will be divided between mission and family responsibilities.
I HAVE CHALLENGED YOU TO GIVE ME THE CHAPTER AND VERSES IN THE BIBLE SHOWING THAT PAUL, JOHN, ANDREW, JAMES, THOMAS, PHILIP, JUDE, MARK, LUKE, BARNABAS, TIMOTHY, TITUS, APOLLOS, SILAS AND THE REST OF THE CHRISTIAN LEADERS OF THE APOSTOLIC ERA GOT MARRIED AND HAD CHILDREN. YET YOU DIDN’T ADDRESS THAT IN YOUR REPLY... AGAIN I’M ASKING YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS: TELL ME... I WANT TO SEE CHAPTER AND VERSES FOR THAT. BECAUSE THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH SHOWS THAT THESE GUYS WERE UNMARRIED FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Jorge
Rev. Fr. Abe P. Arganiosa, CRS
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![ST. JEROME EMILIANI [1486-1537]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6dKQTchkJaA/R0lo013dyBI/AAAAAAAAB_4/XzUAPDESwwQ/s1600/St.+Jerome+in+prayer,+small_1.jpg)
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