BATTLE ROYAL WITH PRO-REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH BILL NO. 5043 SUPPORTERS, Part 4 Excalation to Church Doctrines and Bible Arguments

The Creator by Michelangelo

Noel 3 Oct, 2009

· what can I say, what the heck people, I agree with Mr. Albert on his claim that prevention of life is immoral.

What do you people think sex exists for?Of course for reproduction. Why have sex if you don’t want to bear offsprings? Family planning is Natural Family Planning. Talking about morality, artificial contraceptives is indeed immoral, preventing the effects sex was made to give. Doesn’t it sound ridiculous, to consent people’s engaging in sex without wanting to have children?To prevent life, allowing artificial contraceptives, is going against the law of nature. Because that is the law of nature. Engaging in sex produces offsprings.Instead of wasting our time and energy for promoting artificial contraceptives, why not just devote our time to promote responsibility, discipline and education, and help make more jobs to ease unemployment problems in our country?

And yes, there are more people and children, mostly unwanted progenies although not really, in the poverty-stricken areas. It’s because they’ve got nothing to do but have sex. Can’t you see, why those educated, busy and well-off people barely have kids while those in poverty who got barely anything to eat have like a dozen of kids? That is why we have to make more jobs. Those underprivileged people should be educated and should be employed.

anyway, enough with that, since Filipinos for now are very irresponsible and undisciplined, this bill might be spared from immorality issues. Sometimes, there are actions that are called by time. Sometimes, when all hope fails, we do things that disregards some rules we have been following our lives. People have become, forgive me for the term, degraded that they can’t resist their sexual desires.Now, to prevent any more unwanted progenies who are in the end the losers in the actions of undisciplined people, we may make bills like the one above.Anyway, the disciplined people may still stick with what they believe is right and moral, stick with natural family planning, abstinence when having a child is not in their minds… This bill, i think, serves those people in need of it.

On a personal level, i do not agree that artificial contraceptives should be promoted and even be made legal. But, as I have previously mentioned, time dictates actions that should be done. Long time ago, there is no need for a bill like this. People were conservative and moral. But time changes.And so I express my neutrality on this issue, though at the back of my mind I still consider it ridiculous and disgusting, preventing life, going against the law of nature. Whether or not Noynoy is for this bill, he still has my support. I believe in him.

btw, masturbation is also immoral. Masturbation involves lust, and lust is a sin. ^_^

Manresa3 Oct, 2009

Friends, let us moderate our statements and emotions. Discussions, no matter how vigorous and heated they are, must be based on mutual respect. No ad hominem attacks please!

Albert 3 Oct, 2009

Thank you Manresa. We were arguing here on RH Bill but when Mr. Francisco came into the picture he started attacking our Catholic Faith. I DON’T KNOW HIS RELIGION AND HIS CHURCH. And I am not attacking it. Yet, he is ennumerating here his baseless accusations against my religion and my Church. He wants to make it appear as if the Catholic Church is evil. If the Catholic Church is evil then Tita Cory is evil because she lived her Catholic Faith faithfully until death. Then People Power I was led by evil Cardinal, evil nuns and priests who stopped the tanks with the people praying the Rosaries. Then the Namfrel volunteers were headquartered by evil Catholics in La Salle. It is unfortunate that when People Power is needed our Bishops and priests and nuns are needed. But once victory is won our faith is being trampled like mud on the dust. If you cannot respect our faith respect our works. We have more than charitable institutions in this country than those run by the government even though we don’t have tithing and we do not collect tax from people.

We can argue here about the bill but let us concentrate on the Bill. Don’t put my Catholic faith on the line. Or else I will send the link to this post to thousands of Catholic blogs and links all over the world and you will see numerous protests messages. Don’t alienate faithful Catholics who support Noynoy but cannot violate their conscience on the Immorallity of RH Bill.

I want to thank you and Mary for the respect and also Noel. May I request to stop using the term Dogmatism to insult faithful CAtholics. The term Dogma came from Greek word which simply means Decree. Using brands against another person is foul. It will be easy for the other party to find insulting label in return.

I joined the discussion here because I find this site helpful about the Noynoy Campaign and the posts generally educative. Thus, I engaged you guys in an open dialogue that is respectful and honest. I hope the owners of this site will maintain that.

Engr. Francisco 4 Oct, 2009

Thank you Manresa, I just want to clear things here. I didn’t do name callings here, when I said biblically ignorant, I didn’t mean ignorant at all (even Peter is unlettered), I didn’t call anyone coward, I didn’t call anyone pretentious historian, I didn’t say to anyone pretending to know the definition, I only echoed it from the writer nor did I say that Catholics are evil. What I said that might have offended someone is Blind Fanaticism, but that should not have offended someone because the fact that if a blind will tow another blind, to the pit they will be going. And if I’m not a believer of Priests, it is because I knew from the Bible that the main function of a Priest is to OFFER SACRIFICES TO GOD IN BEHALF OF THE PEOPLE, BUT CHRIST HAS ALREADY SACRIFICED AND DIED ONCE AND FOR ALL, for all mankind who appreciated His ransom-sacrifice.

I would also like also to clarify to someone that we do not impose thithes, we don’t collect money in bags and envelopes we only place donations boxes in the remotest part of the worship halls so that no one can “let his left hand know what his right hand is doing (or giving for that matter)”. Most of all, we do not let our brothers engage in war.

I can also safely say that a catholic should not impose his own faith (if that can be called faith) to his fellow catholic in the matters of family planning. I’m pretty sure that majority of the catholics agree on the family planning artificial methods. Everybody is governed by his own conscience, this can not be dictated by anybody, not even the church. “Let the one who is clean and unblemished cast the first stone.”

I’m posting my email add: jojofrancisco52@yahoo.com, for the the one who wanted to prove who is ignorant of the Holy Scriptures.

To Sen. Noynoy, please go ahead with your endorsement and support to THE REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH BILL, let those who dissent withdraw their support on you. Wala naman iton sapilitan, anyway, they are a minority.

To my fellow Noy Volunteers, keep up the good work.Let us clear this page of name callers.

mary 4 Oct, 2009

@Engr Francisco, salamat sa pagbigay ng email add mo. I take it as pahintulot na dyan itutuloy or tatapusin tong debate na ito, whoever wants to engage you dahil, may kanya-kanyang pananaw nga ang mga tao. Mag post ka ng pananaw mo and then somebody comes along with another view then before you know it nasa madamdaming debate ka na, hahahahaha. Pwede lang nating subukan mag moralize sa ibang tao pero hindi niyo ba napapansin na karamihan ng tao ayaw pa-diktahan lalo na ukol sa pamamalakad at pananaw niya sa buhay? As I said, maski until eternity ang debate na ito, tao pa rin magdecision, hindi simbahan, hindi gobierno. At hindi rin natin maitatwa na maraming katoliko, gaya nga ng lumabas sa isang survey ang gumagamit ng artificial family planning methods. Marami din ang lubus lubos na sumusunod sa simbahan. Aking huling opinion dito, gawin ang simbahan ang obligasyon niyang mag aruga ng kaluluwa ng mga believers at gawin ng gobierno ang pag aruga sa kalusugan ng mga mamamayan. At nasa tao na kung saan sila. Hindi natin pwedeng ipilit gusto natin sa ibang tao. Kaiinisan lang tayo niyan. Imbes na makakuha ka ng kaibigan ng maski papano ay mahilot-hilot mo pakonti konti ang pananaw niya ayon sa kung ano mang adhikain meron ka, lumayo tuloy and loob niya sa iyo. At realidad din yan na hindi madali ang makisalamuha sa mga self-righteous people.

Kung babasahin ang dalawang pananaw ninyo ni Albert, ang mga ito ay kumakatawan sa pribadong pananaw ng mga kababayan natin. Maraming tulad ni Albert, marami rin tulad mo. At mas dejado si Albert sa tingin ko dahil habang Bible-based ang kanyang mga argumento, mapupuna na hindi na maka-Biblia ang tono. Yung sa iyo, maka-taong pananaw, kung maka-tao man ang presentation, hindi masyadong nakakaturn-off kasi umpisa pa lang alam mo na, tao siya. Pero kung maka-Biblia ka, mas mataas ang expectation ng mga tagapakinig mo. Images ni Mother Teresa, the late President Cory, saintlike, ang papasok sa utak mo. Tulad yan ng pari, paring nakaputi, nakahawak ng Bible, parang santo ang dating sa hitsura. Pero kung galit naman magsermon, at naggagandalaiti na sa kasasabi ng tungkol sa Bible at sa kaduduro sa atin na makasalanan tayong mga tao, e hindi ba parang hindi na siya kapanipaniwala?

Ang punto ko rito, mahinahon na pakikipagdebate ang dapat pairalin kasi dyan makikinig ang mga tao. Diyan bibilib ang mga tao na oo nga, tunay nga siyang maka Diyos sa kilos, sa pananalita at maganda nga siyang tularan. Yung lang po. mary4 Oct, 2009

Pahabol pala baka ma mis-interpret pa ako nito, when I said mahirap makisalamuha sa taong self-righteous, ang nasa isip ko ay isang kabigan na wala ng ginawa kun di mag moralize at magkawang gawa pero pag titingnan mo siya closely, maramot, pakialamera at laging may kagalit at hindi totoo ang awa niya kung wala na siya sa circulo ng mga kasamahan niya. In short, ipokrita, pretender. Dakilang turn-off. Mas gusto ko pang makita yung umaamin, hindi ako perfecto at debotado pero may integridad naman at mas kapanipaniwala naman na maka-Diyos.

Kapatas4 Oct, 2009

Manresa: “The RH Bill 4053 is not pro-abortion or anti-life”

I think you got it all wrong. The fact that the bill supports the use of contraceptives and its widespread use among the populace is a proof that the bill is anti-life. In case you don’t know, contraception comes from two latin words: CONTRA + CONCEPTION, which simply means “against conception.” If one is against conception to the point of resorting to various artificial means to prevent it while retaining the pleasures of sex, then one is basically anti-life and selfish and immoral.

Manresa:”It is NOT an anti-life. It is pro-quality life.”

How can the bill be pro-quality life when in fact it supports the use of contraception? Can you improve the quality of life by just reducing the population? As long as corruption is prevalent and we have incompetent and selfish leaders, quality life cannot be guaranteed even if you managed to cut down our population to 50%. Contraception only encourages promiscuity and avoiding responsibility. Instead of welcoming life as a grace from God, what the bill is trying to project is that life is something that is unwanted and burdensome that is supposed to be rejected. That’s satanic.

Francis Raymund Gonzales 4 Oct, 2009

The 100% KATOLIKONG PINOY! Web Ministry is anti-(HB5043)

Albert 5 Oct, 2009

@Mary, your latest statements are trying to appear balanced but are pregnant with malice but it is impotent due to too much condoms and abortifacient pills. Punum-puno ng parinig at patama sa mga Catolico which we commonly hear from Anti-Catholics.

About the priests always carrying the Bible and dressed in white. Excuse me. Most of the priests in our country now are dressed in ordinary clothes they only put their religious garbs during worships and celebrations [I prefer them to wear their cassock daily though.]. Also, the Born Again or the Iglesia ni Cristo pastors [with all due respect] are more known carrying the Bible around. They are mostly dressed in white Barong with Bible on hand. So, please observe properly the priests, not what you imagined them to be. Because it appears to us Catholics that you are only inventing claims without foundation in reality.

Then about priests “galit naman magsermon, at naggagandalaiti na sa kasasabi ng tungkol sa Bible at sa kaduduro sa atin na makasalanan tayong mga tao, e hindi ba parang hindi na siya kapanipaniwala?” Well, countless Masses were celebrated by the best of the best Catholic priests and Bishops during the wake of Tita Cory who among them were angry, pointing the Bible at the audience and accusing them of their sins? Who? Which one? Masses are aired live every Sunday on various national channels and even at the international EWTN, which of the priests are doing that? Give us a name of any priest doing that. Real priest ha, because we will check it on Catholic Directory. Once again, you are attacking an idea that is the product of your own imagination.

Don’t you know that Catholic priests are prohibited to shouts or yell at the people, pointing or accusing them of their sins during the homily or sermon? That is a big no, no. The priest must explain the sin but his focus on the homily must be how to apply the Word of God in their daily life [and how they can be reconciled with God]. Even in Confessions, matters of sins are ‘top secret’ for priests. Actually in sermons our priests are moderate and calm and they even joke on people, making them laugh. Then the homily is only 10 minutes most. In the past, priests were shouting because during those times there were no microphones. Now, it is prohibited to do that. Do you know that? If there are priests who violated it the faithful can complain to the Bishop. Please be realistic in your analogies.

Tita Cory and Mother Teresa are indeed saintly, that is why they opposed and rejected Contraceptions and Abortions. They are the genuinely not “self-righteous”.

About your friend that is doing nothing but moralizing and doing acts of charities but “maramot, pakialamera, laging may kagalit at hindi tutuo ang awa nila kung wala sa circulo ng mga kasamahan niya” is indeed not living genuinely her faith because Tita Cory and Mother Teresa, who genuinely lived the faith are not like her. However, among those who do not obey the Catholic Church there are also people who are not ‘moral’ on their stand, they do not practice charitable works yet they are also maramot, pakialamera, laging may kagalit at hindi tutuo ang awa kapag wala na sila sa circulo nila. Will you deny that? There are also hypocrites and pretenders among pro-Contraceptions. They pretend to be Catholics but they are not. They even use the name of Jesus or the name of His mother, Mary, to appear as if Catholic yet they are in actuality lapdogs of Contraceptive Manufacturing Companies.

I like your statement here: "Mas gusto ko pang makita yung umaamin, hindi ako perfecto at debotado pero may integridad naman at mas kapanipaniwala naman na maka-Diyos.” Maka-Diyos? What is the meaning of being Maka-Diyos? It means that the person will follow the commandments and will of His God and will love his or her faith genuinely in daily life. Well, God is universally believed as the God of Life. He is the Creator and Source, Origin of All Life. How can a person who is a ‘real’ believer of the God of Life be in favor of something so opposed to life? Contra-Conception. Opposing Life [Preventing Life]. May be your God is not the Christian God. What kind of God is that? A god that is against Conception and in favor of abortifacient pills. Surely that is not the God of Tita Cory and of Mother Teresa. [The opposite of Christian God is called SATAN.]

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mary 5 Oct, 2009

@Albert, i like you much better in this tone. You got my point kung paano makuha ng attention at pananampalataya ng tao, not through batuhan ng religious doctrines but explaining and showing them in words and in actions at hindi ko tinutukoy and sarili ko maski masasabi ko that everyday I try to be a better person at huwag magkasala sa tao at sa Diyos. So can we just say that what I said was hypothetical bcoz you and Jon Francisco were firing your biblical and historical ammos at each other at akong nagbabasa sa mga argumento niyo ay hindi yung wisdom ng sinasabi niyo ang nakikita ko kundi dalawang taong nagcocontest. Sa ganyang paraan, pareho kayong walang na-achieve, parehong lumayo ang inyong audience bcoz wala ng space to ponder kung ano man ang pinagsasabi niyo. Any person who wants to talk about God and godly ways ay dapat gawin niya ito sa paraang magpapatunay na maka-Diyos nga siya o makatao nga siya whichever the case is. I mentioned my friend bcos I saw na lahat ng “recruits” niya ay umiiwas dahil nga if you are searching for spirituality, gusto mo yung mag lead sa iyo ay genuinely spiritual. I am a Roman Catholic who would like to exercise my free will sa aking pananampalataya. Hindi gobierno ang didikta sa akin kung anong gagawin ko and I would like my church na bigyan din ako ng merit sa aking kakayahan na mag isip kung ano ang tama at mali. Dahil kung hindi bukal sa puso mo, dyan natutunaw ang true faith at magiging blind obedience na lang. I dont want my church to be dictatorial, gusto ko bukal sa kalooban ko ang aking gawa at paniniwala dahil dyan mo makikita kung gaano ka effective ang simbahan. Kung puro renda ng renda and simbahan hindi mo makikita kung faith pa ba yan o fear na ang iiral sa tao. Kung sa everyday life as a citizen, give me the law and I will obey but do not pressure me to do so because that makes me a coward and not a law abiding citizen.

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Albert 5 Oct, 2009

@Mr. Francisco, if I will engage you in Bible debate I prefer a public forum rather than a private exchange in e-mail where nobody can read the exchange.

Besides, you have attacked my faith in public. Instead of focusing on RH Bill and Contraceptions you diverted it to

1. Denial of Peter’s presence in Rome.

2. The suggestion that James has more authority than Peter.3. The 7 Sacraments as absent in the Bible.4. The Royal priesthood is limited to 144,000 and others.

How can I trust you in a private e-mail debate when:

1. You havent given me your religioun and your faith affiliation yet.

2. You have not answered my question where Peter lived and died during the later years of his life.

3. You have not answer my question regarding the alternative place for Peter if he was not in Rome.

4. You didn’t answer yet my questions if Baptism, Marriage and other Sacraments are in the Bible.

5. You haven’t answered my question if you are part of 144,000 that will be saved.

You just throw an accusation against the Catholic Church and when you are refuted you jump from topic to topic. Now you entered into the issue of CHRIST DIED ONCE AND FOR ALL.

How nice of you.

Jesus died once and for all. Yes, we believe that. The Catholic Church never taught that Jesus died several times. Who told you that? Where is that in our Catechism? The Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross is once and for all and that is declared in our Creed: “He suffered under Pontius Pilate, DIED and was buried.” His death is once and not several times.

Why do we offer more sacrifices? Because Jesus ordered us to do so. What sacrifices is that? The Sacrifice of the Bread and the Wine which Jesus told his disciples: “Do this in remembrance of Me.” That is why the Catholic Mass is in obedience of that command. There is a Eucharistic Table and we are offering the Bread and the Wine which becomes the Body and Blood of the Lord by the Power of His Words and Command. [It belongs to the Order of Mechizedek which is the Order of Christ.]

Praise the Lord if you do not impose tithes. How can we be sure, we do not know your religious affiliation? Your claim that there is only a donation box at the end looks more proper of the Catholic Church for me. When we enter Baclaran or Quiapo there are donation boxes at the sides or end for those who are willing to give wholeheartedly.

The Catholic Church is not imposing on anyone but just like any religion our members are free to obey her and even to disobey her and follow the doctrines and views of the corrupt politicians or of the Contraceptives Manufacturing Companies. We are simply calling on the Congress and the Government and the People not to ennact laws that will violate our Catholic faith and morals.

@Mary, I appreciate also the tone of your latest post. Thank you for clarifying that.

There is no imposition Mary, we are merely presenting our views and sides here.

Concerning Bible and Doctrines. I don’t have intentions to go into Doctrinal arguments here. However, since my faith was attacked it is my duty to explain my faith Biblically. Kasi pati mga doctrines namin about Rome, Peter, Sacraments, Sacrifices ay inatake na.

We just exchange ideas, let us dialogue and not attack our faith. Sharing of ideas, even differing ones is healthy for freedom and democracy.