The Icon of the Trinity by Andrei Rublev, a Russian Orthodox icon. It depicts the Three Mysterious Visitors of Abraham. They appeared as Three yet speaking as One God.*** This exchange took place in one of the comment sections for SOLA FIDE. I already forgot about it until one of our regular readers and followers, Bro. Ivan Enrile, brought my attention to it. I realized that this topic is not supposed to be included there and therefore I brought it out for others to see and to study. I hope this will be useful for those who are studying Catholic Apologetics on Sacred Images.
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Anonymous said...
Sa simpleng usapan, saan po binabanggit na iniutos ng Dios Ama na igawa Siya ng rebulto bilang Kanyang representasyon para i-display sa loob ng Simbahan? Saan makikita na nag-utos ang Dios Ama na gumawa ng rebulto ng Santisima Trinidad?
June 14, 2009 8:59 PM
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[Sa simpleng usapan, saan po binabanggit sa Biblia na masama gumawa ng larawan ng Santissima Trinidad bilang representasyon sa Simbahan?]
Saan makikita na ito ay ipinagbawal ng Dios Ama? God the Father prohibited the construction or making of images of 'False gods' now you are applying the rules on false gods [dios-diosan] with the True God. Your reasoning is illogical because you presume that if a thing is not in the Bible then it is wrong. O ho... who told you that? A thing is evil or wrong if it is prohibited by God and contrary to His Moral principles. Since you are trying to attack our artistic representation of the Holy Trinity then you have to show to us from the Bible that the image of the Holy Trinity is evil or prohibited by God.
You are the one questioning our faith then you must be the one to show proof for your arguments. Besides, don't be anonymous. Where in the Bible is it written that when you are proclaiming your faith you must be 'Anonymous'?
June 15, 2009 8:30 AM
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antirebulto said...
Bro. Abe, CRS What is written in the Bible is plain and simple. In the Old Testament the Jews were prohibited to make images because nobody was allowed to see Him in all His glory. The mere fact that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God was for the Jews blasphemy to the highest degree. It does not mean that because Paul says that God the Father is His image we are now free to make images that would represent Him. Paul does not intend for us to take that literally by inspiring us to carve images of God the Father. I have not seen any official document of the Catholic Church which support your view about carving images of your holy trinity. Even the Orthodox Church (Eastern Catholics[?]) which legitimately claims its right to apostolicity never ever dare make an image of God the Father. That is prohibited in the Bible simply because you become no different from what the pagans in the Old Testament were doing.Now, do you think that makes sense?I hope fanaticism is not working here but pure historical respect to the ancient Jewish and Christian roots.Thank you.
June 17, 2009 10:30 PM
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Mr. antirebulto, So this is the issues that you are referring to that I didn't address. OK. I oversee it and so here is my reply:
[Bro. Abe, CRSWhat is written in the Bible is plain and simple. In the Old Testament the Jews were prohibited to make images because nobody was allowed to see Him in all His glory.]
O no, the Jews were prohibited to make the images of False gods or the gods and goddesses but they were allowed to make images in the Temple. The Bible has presented a lot of these images. Read your Bible carefully.
Nobody is allowed to see God in all His glory. That's right. And we never claimed that we saw God in all His glory so what is your problem? You are questioning us on matter that we didn't claim.
[The mere fact that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God was for the Jews blasphemy to the highest degree.]
FOR THE JEWS THAT IS BLASPHEMY BUT FOR CHRISTIANS THAT IS THE TRUTH OF FAITH. WE ARE CHRISTIANS AND THEREFORE WE DO NOT CONSIDER IT A BLASPHEMY. How about you? What is your stand on that?
[It does not mean that because Paul says that God the Father is His image we are now free to make images that would represent Him.]
And Paul didn't prohibit the Christians to make the images of Christ the Lord as well. Thus, the catacombs and the houses of early Christians are archeologically proven to have images of Christ and of Mary and of the Cross or the symbols of Bread and Grape Wine, etc.
[Paul does not intend for us to take that literally by inspiring us to carve images of God the Father.]
Don't try to be a spokesperson of Paul; it's not convincing.
[I have not seen any official document of the Catholic Church which support your view about carving images of your holy trinity.]
Why don't you review the documents issued by the HOly See concerning the Great Jubilee 2000 wherein there is the official explanation of the ICON OF THE TRINITY by Andrei Rublev. It destroys your assertion.
[Even the Orthodox Church (Eastern Catholics[?]) which legitimately claims its right to apostolicity never ever dare make an image of God the Father.]
Why don't you study the Greek and Russian Orthodox Iconography of the Holy Trinity and you will realize that you have shown your ignorance of Orthodox theology and iconography.The ICON OF THE TRINITY mentioned above is from Russian Orthodoxy and God the Father is artistically represented there. There are others representing God the Father as an old man or as a hand appearing on a cloud during the Transfiguration or Baptism of Jesus. Some are representing God the Father as a very bright light on a Throne.
Even Protestants and Evangelical children Bible are showing God in a father-like artistic representation. I have also seen comics materials doing the same from Jehova Witnesses colored books.
[That is prohibited in the Bible simply because you become no different from what the pagans in the Old Testament were doing.]
The pagans were representing Jupiter, Neptune, Mars, Horus, Astarte, etc. So, to compare the Biblical image of God the Father to that of the pagans doesn't hold water.The Bible gave images of God as Burning Bush, Pillar of Fire, Good Shephered, Mighty Eagle, Light of the World, Bread of Life are also valid artistic expression because they are Biblical Images given to the believers. The most important of these images is the face of Christ seen by people during His stay on earth.
[Now, do you think that makes sense?I hope fanaticism is not working here but pure historical respect to the ancient Jewish and Christian roots.Thank you.]
Thank you too. Definitely fanaticism is not working here. The image of God as a Father is based on Jesus' statement that He is our Father and we simply employed the patriarchal image of fatherhood.Our images of the Holy Trinity are not representation of the full glory of God but of the Biblical images that He gave His people in the Sacred Scriptures. This is something shared by Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants and Evangelicals. Yes, Evangelicals... I saw it in their Gospel Story books and in their coloring Bible materials.
June 21, 2009 12:03 AM
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![ST. JEROME EMILIANI [1486-1537]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6dKQTchkJaA/R0lo013dyBI/AAAAAAAAB_4/XzUAPDESwwQ/s1600/St.+Jerome+in+prayer,+small_1.jpg)
I think the tradition of representing God the Father as a "bearded old man" comes from Daniel 7:9 calling the Creator the "Ancient of Days".
ReplyDeleteThank you Father for your wonderful work!
You are right on that Bro. Mhar Angelo.
ReplyDeleteActually, there was another exchange with another guy that I explained that. I think it is also in the comment section of another topic. I hope I will be able to find that one and incorporate it here.
Indeed, there are icons of God the Father made by Orthodox representing Him as an old Patriarch with majestic garb, sitting on a throne which is based on that passage from the prophet Daniel.
God bless you.
Not surprised with such nasty comments. We've survived the harshest comments for the past 2,000 and the Catholic Church is still standing for Christ promised no lies nor deceit can make his Church false.
ReplyDeleteLet the fakes complain. Thanks Father for the very nice explanation and refutation.
Youre welcome Bro. Church Defender. God bless you. Thank you for your compliments and apreciation of our works.
ReplyDeleteEto kasing anti-rebulto na ito eh hunyangong mapagbalatkayo. Eh bakit hindi niya bombahin ang rebulto ni Felix Manalo sa INC Central? Mapagpaimbabaw!!! Ayaw naman magpakilala ng duwag na ito. Hindi niya nga mapanindigan ang pananampalataya niya ng mukhaan eh. Nagtatago sa saya ng sugong pirated.
ReplyDeleteGanyan talaga ang mga nasa huwad na relihiyon, MAIINGAY. Kulang kasi sa pansin. Walang ipnagkaiba iyan sa mga kabit o kerida. MAIINGAY na nag-aangkin na sila ang tunay na asawa.
Ang tunay na asawa tahimik lang. Kagaya ng Iglesia Katolika. Ang mga huwad gaya ng kabit nangangalandakan na sila raw ang tunay na iglesia. Maingay kasi nalipasan ng gutom ang sugo.
Is Mr. Anti-rebulto a Manalist? I doubt it...
ReplyDeleteDear Bro. Aegis-Judex,
ReplyDeleteI think he is born again. But sometimes I'm also confused with them. Since many of the Anti-Catholics posting here are not courageous enough to show their faces as we do, so it's difficult to determine.
Please help me discern their real affiliation. Thank you and God bless.
Ah burn again? Kaya pala masama ang ugali at duwag. Burn again nga. Ganyan na ganyan talaga ang mga burn again. Bahag ang bunto, maingay at walang alam sa Biblia. Makitid ang utak. Pero kung makaalipusta akala mo kung sinong kapahampahaman.
ReplyDeleteI thank God there is now an apologetic movement in our country and a place to give rebuttals to the many false and uninformed accusations leveled at the Church. However, I am concerned sometimes at the use of certain language and expressions by some of our own apologists and those who post comments. They remind me of the tone and expressions of members of the ADD or INC which are anything but Christian.The Bereans and other fundamentalists are often courteous and calm even though their arguments are off tangent most of the time. I think we should try to be more Christian than they are and not indulge in name calling and acerbic comments which do not add to the clarity of our arguments.
ReplyDeleteEverything we do should be done in love , even correcting erroneous beliefs.May the Spirit of love guide all of us in all things. PS. I remain anonymous because I do not have an account with any of the choices given.
Someone should put an end to the lies of the enemies of the Holy Mother Church; after all, THEY HAD IT COMING.
ReplyDeleteAnong taon po ba naipinta 'tong Russian Icon ng Holy Trinity?
ReplyDeleteIn our barrio po kasi we have also Old Image of the Most Holy Trinity
and we believe that the Holy Image was painted by a Mexican [for those who wants to see the Holy Image, you can find it at flickr, just type Santisima Trinidad].
Thanks!
Dear Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThe icon of the Trinity was painted around 1410 by Andrei Rublev, a Russian iconographer.
It depicts the three angels who visited Abraham at the Oak of Mamre - but is often interpreted as an icon of the Trinity.
It is sometimes called the icon of the Old Testament Trinity.
The image is full of symbolism - designed to take the viewer into the Mystery of the Trinity.