The Baptism of Jesus Never Mentioned by the Bible as by Dipping or Immersion, contrary to the hallucinations of Anti-Catholics.*******
Anonymous said...
I came here with peace, so please approve my comment. If I have said strong words or anything, may you forgive me so that God may forgive you also ^_^ (Mat.6:14)
Also, may I have some questions regarding this topic... But first before I say my comments, let me cite what you have said in the first two paragraphs of your explanation...
Fr Abe says: Where in the Bible is it stated that Children must not be baptized? Chapter and verse please!
Then he said on the second paragraph...
Fr. Abe says: Even though the Scriptures didn't categorically and explicitly teach that Children must be baptized or not, the Sacred Scriptures gave us more than enough reason to be convinced that Infant Baptism is a Biblical practice.
hmm, so he answered his question on his first paragraph. Look at my point, since he is the one who said that the scriptures or the bible didn't categorically explicitly teach that Children must be baptized or not? Why he is asking the readers to cite chapter and verse regarding that the children must not be baptized?
Are you getting old father Abe? I may be a high school student, but base on what I read, I think you need a brain enhancer, hehe, joke!, I’m just pointing out why you ask for a verse regarding that the children must not be baptized, then you said that the bible or the scriptures didn't categorically explicitly teach that Children must be baptized or not? I hope you got some answers to tell me about this one... Let me cite a verse regarding BABIES, not children, may I repeat, I come in peace, I’m not asking for a fight or debate or whatever, I’m just pointing out what i read on your post...
Now before my questions, let us first know from the dictionary what the meaning of baby and children is…
Child - a person between birth and full growth;
Baby - an infant or very young child. - a human fetus.
We can see that these two words have in common, but look at my point. The first meaning of the child in the dictionary is “a person between birth and full growth” then the meaning of the baby is “an infant or very young child”. Look at the difference, literally, a child can walk, play, etc. but the baby, can he play? Can he walk? See what my point is? There are some differences between child and baby, so if child is in a verse, I think we must consider that it is a person between birth and full growth and if the verse says baby, I think we must consider it as a infant
If we are going to cite a verse from the Bible that Fr. Abe have used, we can see what the scriptures wants to imply
Look at this verse
Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Father Abe said that the word children must be INFANTS, now take a look on this
(Need Adobe Reader in order to see)
If you look at verse 19:14, the original Greek word is “paidia” which means “little-boys-and-girls” if you look at this website cited above, which means it is not infants. And let us use our minds, look at the verse, Jesus said that “come unto me”, if it is really infants, can infants come to Jesus? Can they walk to Jesus? And look, Jesus also said “Forbid them not” Does someone will forbid an infant come to Jesus?
Also, Fr. Abe cited some verses that the Apostles indeed deserve a baptism, Yes! We don’t have any arguments about that because they are indeed called by God, still; do the apostles have been baptized during their infant stages? I think it is my right to say “Cite some verses and chapter please”
Now regarding about the verses cited by Fr. Abe,, (Mt 11:25, 2 Tim 3:15, Ps 8:2, Mt 21:16, Mt 18:1-4, Mt 18:5, Mt 18:14 etc) We don’t have problems with these verses, but if you look at the cited verses, does the verse tell that the infants or the children must be baptized? Does really the infant or child need baptism?
Part 1
January 21, 2010 2:04 AM
********
[I came here with peace, so please approve my comment.]
SO, PEACE BE WITH YOU. I HAVE APPROVED YOUR COMMENT BUT IT TOOK ME TIME TO DO SO BECAUSE I WAS BUSY WITH ADD SUPPORTERS AND AN OUT OF HIS MIND BORN AGAIN WHO THINKS THAT ST. AUGUSTINE AND ST. THOMAS AQUINAS' THEOLOGY OF PREDESTINATION ARE THE SIMILAR.
ALSO, YOU APPEAR TO BE A TRAINED APOLOGIST SO YOU MUST NOT BE ANONYMOUS. IF YOU WILL CHOOSE TO REMAIN AS SUCH THIS WILL BE YOUR LAST COMMENT TO BE ACCEPTED HERE. IF YOU WISH OUR EXCHANGE TO CONTINUE PLEASE IDENTIFY YOURSELF AND LET’S HAVE A LIVELY AND HONEST EXCHANGE ON THE ISSUE AT BAR.
[ If I have said strong words or anything, may you forgive me so that God may forgive you also ^_^ (Mat.6:14)]
YOU ARE ULTRA-DRAMATIC. THERE IS NO NEED TO BE SO. INSTEAD OF MOVING ME TO TEARS YOU'RE MAKING ME LAUGH. HA, HA, HA...
[Also, may I have some questions regarding this topic...]
OK. WHAT ARE YOUR QUESTIONS?
[ But first before I say my comments, let me cite what you have said in the first two paragraphs of your explanation...
Fr Abe says: Where in the Bible is it stated that Children must not be baptized? Chapter and verse please!]
SO, WHERE IS THE CHAPTER AND VERSE THAT I AM REQUESTING? IF YOU ARE REFUTING MY POSITION YOU MUST PROVIDE A CATEGORICAL ANSWER TO THAT. UNLESS YOU DO SO YOU CANNOT CLAIM HAVING A BIBLICAL BASIS FOR YOUR OPPOSITION OF OUR CATHOLIC SUPPORT FOR INFANT BAPTISM.
[Then he said on the second paragraph...
Fr. Abe says: Even though the Scriptures didn't categorically and explicitly teach that Children must be baptized or not, the Sacred Scriptures gave us more than enough reason to be convinced that Infant Baptism is a Biblical practice.
hmm, so he answered his question on his first paragraph.]
THAT IS MY ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. HOW ABOUT YOU? WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER TO THE SAME QUESTION? DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH MY ANSWER?
[ Look at my point,]
HA, HA, HA... WHAT IS YOUR POINT? YOU HAVE NOT YET PRESENTED A THING YET YOU ARE ALREADY ASKING ME TO LOOK AT THE POINT THAT YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN YET. THAT IS PREPOSTEROUS.
YOU ARE NECESSITATED TO ANSWER MY QUESTION.
[since he is the one who said that the scriptures or the bible didn't categorically explicitly teach that Children must be baptized or not? Why he is asking the readers to cite chapter and verse regarding that the children must not be baptized?]
FIRST, I POSITED THAT QUESTION AS A CHALLENGE TO THOSE WHO WILL OPPOSE MY POSITION THAT IF THEY WANT TO CONTRADICT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH’S SUPPORT OF INFANT BABTISM THEY MUST PRESENT THE EXPLICIT BIBLICAL PASSAGE THAT PROHIBITS IT.
SECOND, IF THEY CANNOT SHOW ANY EXPLICIT BIBLICAL TEXT CATEGORICALLY REFUSING INFANT BAPTISM THEN IT IS UNJUST, UNFAIR AND ILLOGICAL FOR THEM TO DEMAND THE SAME CRITERIA FROM ME OR FROM OUR CATHOLIC CHURCH. FAIR IS FAIR.
[Are you getting old father Abe?]
HOW ABOUT YOU? WHO ARE YOU? ARE YOU A PLANE, A BIRD OR AN ANIMAL? MAY I KNOW YOUR NAME AND YOUR RELIGION IF YOU HAVE THE COURAGE TO DO SO?
HOW NICE OF YOU TO ASK SUCH A QUESTION WHEN YOU ARE WEARING THE MASK OF THE INVISIBLE MALIGNANT SPIRIT.
[ I may be a high school student, but base on what I read, I think you need a brain enhancer, hehe, joke!,]
WHAT A NICE JOKE. I CALL IT HYPOCRISY... BEING ANONYMOUS THEN CLAIMING TO BE A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT. HA, HA, HA... HOW DO YOU FEEL DECEIVING YOUR OWN SELF AND INVENTING LIES TO SPREAD IT OUT WITH OTHERS? DO YOU FIND IT INTOXICATING?
[I’m just pointing out why you ask for a verse regarding that the children must not be baptized, then you said that the bible or the scriptures didn't categorically explicitly teach that Children must be baptized or not?]
THE TWO ANSWERS ARE GIVEN. BESIDES, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH THAT? IS THERE ANY PROBLEM WITH IT? SINCE WHEN ANSWERING ONE’S QUESTION IS WRONG, IMPROPER OR DETRIMENTAL TO ONE’S CAUSE? IF I ASKED A QUESTION AND PRESENTED AN ANSWER THEN IT IS WITHIN MY RIGHT TO DO SO? HA, HA, HA...
WHY? DO YOU WANT ME NOT TO ANSWER MY OWN QUESTION? HA, HA, HA... I CAN’T SEE THE LOGIC IN YOUR REASONING.
[I hope you got some answers to tell me about this one...]
YEAH, I DO HOPE ALSO THAT YOU WILL PROVIDE ANSWERS TO ALL MY QUESTIONS RAISED AND TO BE RAISED STILL. ONE BY ONE, POINT BY POINT.
[Let me cite a verse regarding BABIES, not children, may I repeat, I come in peace, I’m not asking for a fight or debate or whatever, I’m just pointing out what i read on your post...]
WELL, FIRST AND FOREMOST YOU HAVE NOT STATED WHETHER YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH MY STATEMENT. I FIND THAT MANNER OF YOURS AS TOO CUNNING AND THEREFORE MUST BE TREATED WITH SUSPICION. IT’S EITHER YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY OR YOU ARE HIDING YOUR REAL POSITION AS WELL AS INTENTION FROM ME.
[Now before my questions, let us first know from the dictionary what the meaning of baby and children is…
Child - a person between birth and full growth;
Baby - an infant or very young child. - a human fetus.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baby ]
THANK YOU FOR THE DEFINITIONS. UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, THE DICTIONARY THAT YOU USED IS NOT A BIBLICAL DICTIONARY.
[We can see that these two words have in common, but look at my point. The first meaning of the child in the dictionary is “a person between birth and full growth” then the meaning of the baby is “an infant or very young child”. Look at the difference, literally, a child can walk, play, etc. but the baby, can he play? Can he walk? See what my point is? There are some differences between child and baby, so if child is in a verse, I think we must consider that it is a person between birth and full growth and if the verse says baby, I think we must consider it as a infant]
OK. I ACCEPT YOUR DEFINITIONS BASED ON THE DICTIONARY. BUT ARE YOU SURE THAT THE SAME DEFINITIONS ARE FIT FOR THE GREEK WORDS USED BY THE EVANGELISTS AND BIBLICAL WRITERS FOR CHILDREN AND INFANTS? DO THEY GIVE EXACTLY THE SAME MEANING AS YOUR DICTIONARY?
[If we are going to cite a verse from the Bible that Fr. Abe have used, we can see what the scriptures wants to imply
Look at this verse
Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Father Abe said that the word children must be INFANTS, now take a look on this
(Need Adobe Reader in order to see)
If you look at verse 19:14, the original Greek word is “paidia” which means “little-boys-and-girls” if you look at this website cited above, which means it is not infants. And let us use our minds, look at the verse, Jesus said that “come unto me”, if it is really infants, can infants come to Jesus? Can they walk to Jesus? And look, Jesus also said “Forbid them not” Does someone will forbid an infant come to Jesus?]
HA, HA, HA... I THINK YOU ARE A LIAR!!!
I CHECKED THE MOST FAMOUS BIBLICAL DICTIONARY USED BY PROTESTANTS... THE STRONG’S COMMENTARY AND HERE IS THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD PROVIDED:
παιδίον [paidion] pahee-dee'-on
Neuter diminutive of G3816; a childling (of either sex), that is, (properly) an INFANT, or (by extension) a half grown boy or girl; figuratively an immature Christian: - (little, young) child, damsel.
HA, HA, HA... THE FIRST MEANING GIVEN BY THIS GREAT AND RENOWN BIBLICAL DICTIONARY IS “A CHILDLING, THAT IS [PROPERLY] AN INFANT". THE HALF GROWN BOY OR GIRL IS SECONDARY TO “INFANT”. SO MY MEANING IS CORRECT AND YOURS IS A POSSIBILITY TOO BUT MINE IS MORE APPROPRIATE THAN YOURS BECAUSE IT TAKES PRECEDENCE. HA, HA, HA... LIAR, LIAR, LIAR!!!
IS THAT WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT TO YOU IN HIGH SCHOOL TO TELL LIES IN PUBLIC? TSK, TSK, TSK... WHAT PROTESTANT SCHOOL IS THAT?
THE PROMINENT BIBLICAL COMMENTATOR MATTHEW HENRY REFERS TO THE LITTLE CHILDREN AS PROBABLY BROUGHT BY THEIR PARENTS, GUARDIANS OR NURSES. HE, HE, HE... SO THEY ARE REALLY VERY YOUNG... IT ALL THE MORE FAVORS THE INFANTS. HE, HE, HE... LOOK HERE:
Verses 13-15
We have here the welcome which Christ gave to some little children that were brought to him. Observe,
I. The faith of those that brought them. How many they were, that were brought, we are not told; but they were so little as to be taken up in arms, a year old, it may be, or two at most. The account here given of it, is, that there were brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray, v. 13. Probably they were their parents, guardians, or nurses, that brought them; [Henry, Matthew: Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible : Complete and Unabridged in One Volume. Peabody : Hendrickson, 1996, c1991, S. Mt 19:13]
SO, BEFORE YOU PRETEND TO BE SO KNOWLEDGEABLE ‘PRETENDING HIGH SCHOOL’ PLEASE STUDY A LITTLE BIT HARDER IN YOUR BIBLICAL RESEARCH SO THAT YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF BIBLICAL EXEGESIS DOESN’T LOOK LIKE THAT OF AN ELEMENTARY STUDENT.
HERE IS ANOTHER EXPLANATION FROM REAL BIBLE SCHOLARS:
19:13-15. Many PARENTS were bringing children . . . to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples felt this was a waste of Jesus’ time. They began rebuking those bringing their children. Apparently the disciples had already forgotten what Jesus said earlier about the worth of children and the seriousness of causing them to fall (cf. 18:1-14). Jesus rebuked the disciples, telling them to let the little children come and not hinder them. The kingdom of heaven is not limited to adults who might be considered to be worth more than children. Anyone who comes to the Lord in faith is a worthy subject for the kingdom. This implies (19:15) that Jesus had time for all the children, for He did not depart from the region till He had blessed them all. [Walvoord, John F. ; Zuck, Roy B. ; Dallas Theological Seminary: The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL : Victor Books, 1983-c1985, S. 2:64]
THE SCHOLARS FROM DALLAS THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, THE RENOWN BAPTIST SCHOOL OF THEOLOGY, SUPPORT MY ASSERTION THAT THESE ARE INFANTS CARRIED BY THEIR PARENTS. THE ADJECTIVE ‘LITTLE’ APPLIED ON THE NOUN ‘CHILDREN’ POINTS TO THE SUBJECTS AS INFANTS NOT THE GROWN UP CHILDREN WHO ARE ALREADY WALKING AND RUNNING ON THE STREETS.
WHY DO I HAVE TO BELIEVE YOUR EXEGESIS OF THE SACRED SCRIPTURES WHEN BOTH CATHOLIC AND PROTESTANT SCHOLARS ARE UNITED IN REFERRING TO THESE LITTLE CHILDREN AS ‘BABIES CARRIED BY THEIR PARENTS’? YOUR POSITION IS SHALLOW AND BEREFT OF SOLID BIBLICAL SCHOLARSHIP.
[Also, Fr. Abe cited some verses that the Apostles indeed deserve a baptism, Yes! We don’t have any arguments about that because they are indeed called by God, still; do the apostles have been baptized during their infant stages? I think it is my right to say “Cite some verses and chapter please”]
WHAT ARE THE VERSES THAT I CITED SAYING THAT THE APOSTLES DESERVE A BAPTISM? WHERE? WHAT ARE THOSE VERSES? I THINK YOU ARE IN A HALLUCINATORY STAGE OF YOUR ELEMENTARY EDUCATION. HA, HA, HA...
[Now regarding about the verses cited by Fr. Abe,, (Mt 11:25, 2 Tim 3:15, Ps 8:2, Mt 21:16, Mt 18:1-4, Mt 18:5, Mt 18:14 etc) We don’t have problems with these verses,]
HA, HA, HA... YOU DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THOSE VERSES BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE SUPPORTIVE OF OUR POSITION RATHER THAN YOURS. THOSE VERSES ARE CHILDREN OR INFANTS FRIENDLY NOT AT ALL PROHIBITIVE TO THE INFANTS.
[but if you look at the cited verses, does the verse tell that the infants or the children must be baptized?
IF YOU LOOK AT THE CITED VERSES , DO THE VERSES PROHIBIT INFANT BAPTISM? HA, HA, HA...
THOSE VERSES ARE FAVORABLE TO THE DIGNITY OF INFANTS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, THEY ARE LOVED BY GOD AND THAT THEY MUST NOT BE REJECTED. SO, WE ARE NOT DEPRIVING THEM OF BAPTISM WHILE YOU ARE DEPRIVING THEM FOR NO APPARENT BIBLICAL REASON AT ALL.
[Does really the infant or child need baptism?]
YES, THEY ARE IN NEED OF BAPTISM BECAUSE THEY ARE PART OF THE PROMISED GIVEN BY GOD THROUGH BAPTISM. PETER STATED THAT:
Act 2:37-39 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to YOUR CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
WHEN PETER WAS ASKED ‘WHAT SHALL WE DO?’ REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM WAS GIVEN. NOW, THE CHILDREN HAVE NOTHING TO REPENT BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE ACTUAL SINS SO IT IS AN INJUSTICE TO DEMAND REPENTANCE FROM THEM. BUT THEY CAN RECEIVED BAPTISM.
THAT IS THEIR RIGHT AS PART OF THE PROMISE. IF THOSE WHO ARE FAR OFF ARE DESERVING OF BAPTISM MUCH MORE THE CHILDREN WHO ARE NEAR. THE FAR OFF ARE THE GENTILES, THE CHIDREN REFERS TO THE OFFSPRINGS OF THE BELEIVERS.
ST. PETER ADDED: “EVEN AS MANY AS THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CALL.” HA, HA, HA... THE PROBLEM WITH YOU IS THAT DIVINE CALLING OR DIVINE ELECTION OR PREDESTINATION IN BOTH CATHOLIC AND REFORM THEOLOGY IS BOTH ETERNAL. IT STARTS EVEN BEFORE BIRTH. THE BIBLE SUPPORTS THAT:
Jeremiah 1:46 "Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Luke 1:13-15 "But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."
Luke 1:39-44 "And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."
Galatians 1:15 [NIV] “But when GOD Who SET ME APART FROM BIRTH [footnote: From my mother’s womb] and CALLED ME by His grace...” [GNB: “But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,”]
Ephesians 1:4-6 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
WHERE DID YOU GET THE IDEA THAT THE CHILDREN MUCH MORE INFANTS ARE NOT IN NEED OF BAPTISM? Chapter and verse please.
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