The Splendor of the Church: REFUTING ANTI-CATHOLIC APOLOGIST JOHN JOSEPH RAS ON PREDESTINATION OF ST. AUGUSTINE, ST. THOMAS AQUINAS AND JOHN CALVIN, Part 2

Thursday, February 18, 2010

REFUTING ANTI-CATHOLIC APOLOGIST JOHN JOSEPH RAS ON PREDESTINATION OF ST. AUGUSTINE, ST. THOMAS AQUINAS AND JOHN CALVIN, Part 2

St. Thomas Aquinas, priest and doctor of the Church

John Joseph Ras said...

Isa lang po ang ibig sabihin niyan:

Wala po kayong alam sa mga paninindigan ni Mang Tomas at San Agustin. Mabuti pa ako na isang hindi katoliko, alam ko. Mahilig kasi akong magbasa, hindi ako basta sugod lang ng sugod nang wala namang alam.

Minumungkahi ko pong basahin niyo ang "Summa Theologica" ni Mang Tomas. Click here.

Minumungkahi ko rin po ang treatise ni San Agustin na pinamagatang "On the Predestination of the Saints" at "On the Perseverance of the Saints". Click here.

Ikumpara niyo po sa posisyon ni Calvin sa kanyang Institutes of the Christian Religion. Click here.

Makikita niyo po na WALANG PINAGIBA ang konsepto ng Predestinasyon ng tatlong ito.

> Saint Augustine believed in Unconditional Election.

> Thomas Aquinas believed in Unconditional Election.

> John Calvin believed in Unconditional Election.

> Saint Augustine believed in Sovereign Reprobation.

> Thomas Aquinas believed in Sovereign Reprobation.

> John Calvin believed in Sovereign Reprobation.

> Saint Augustine believed in the Perseverance of the Saints.

> Thomas Aquinas believed in the Perseverance of the Saints.

> John Calvin believed in Perseverance of the Saints.

> Saint Augustine believed in Total Depravity.

> Thomas Aquinas believed in Total Depravity.

> John Calvin believed in the Total Depravity.

Kaya kapag sinabi niyo pong HERESY ang Calvinistic view of predestination, para niyo na rin pong sinabing heretiko sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas.

Hindi niyo po alam yan, kasi ignorante (wala po akong maisip na mas better na term) po kayo hinggil sa paniniwala nina Saint Augustine at Thomas Aquinas.

February 11, 2010 10:26 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

HA, HA, HA... THANK YOU.NAPAKA TALINO MO. BELIEVE AKO SA YO.

BUTI NA LANG AT MAY KOPYA AKO NG MGA GAWANG IYAN NI SAN AGUSTINO AT NI SANTO TOMAS.

KUNG TITIGNAN MO ANG AKING SINULAT SA TAAS AKING SINABI SA IYO NA: "ANG SABIHIN MO, NAGPIPILIT SI CALVIN NA GAYAHIN ANG MGA DOCTRINES NI AGUSTIN AT TOMAS AQUINO. GINAYA NYA ANG MGA TERMINOLOGIES NG DALAWA PERO PALPAK PA RIN. HALATANG HERETICAL ANG POSITION NYA."

HINDI SINA AGUSTIN AT TOMAS ANG SUMUNOD KAY CALVIN DAHIL NAUNA SILA NG DAAN-DAANG TAON SA HERETICO. AT DAHIL NAUNA SILA SIEMPRE GINAYA NI CALVIN ANG KANILANG MGA TERMINOLOGIES. SUBALIT MAGKA-IBA ANG INTERPRETATION NG DALAWA KESA KAY CALVIN. THE TWO REMAINE FAITHFUL TO THE CHURCH OF ROME.

HINDI PORKE PAREHO ANG MGA TERMS AY PAREHO NA NG DOCTRINA. LOOK AT JUSTIFICATION. PAREHONG GINAGAMIT YAN NG CATOLICO AT REFORMISTA PERO MAGKAIBA ANG INTERPRETATION. HE, HE, HE...

February 11, 2010 10:47 PM

John Joseph Ras said...

Una sa lahat, hindi ko naman sinabing sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas ang nanggaya eh. Siyempre ang ginaya ni John Calvin ay yung nakasulat sa Kasulatan, nagkataon nga lang na pati sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas ay gumaya sa Kasulatan, kaya pare-parehas sila ng posisyon hinggil sa Predestination (Election and Reprobation).

Tungkol naman po sa sinabi mong:

[GINAYA NI CALVIN ANG KANILANG MGA TERMINOLOGIES. SUBALIT MAGKA-IBA ANG INTERPRETATION NG DALAWA KESA KAY CALVIN. THE TWO REMAINE FAITHFUL TO THE CHURCH OF ROME.

HINDI PORKE PAREHO ANG MGA TERMS AY PAREHO NA NG DOCTRINA.]

Pano niyo po nasabing magkaiba sila ng interpretasyon tungkol sa mga terminolohiya na ginamit? Wala po kayong basihan... maliwanag na nagpapalusot lamang po kayo dahil nabuking ko ang pagiging double-standard niyo sa pagkonsulta sa dalawang church fathers na ito.

Simulan natin sa "Sovereign Election", gusto niyo? Gawa tayo ng comparison sa definition of terms nila at sa mga argument at paliwanag nila, tapos tsaka niyo sabihin sa aking iba ang posisyon ni Calvin. Ano game?

February 11, 2010 10:59 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

[Una sa lahat, hindi ko naman sinabing sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas ang nanggaya eh.]

TALAGANG HINDI MO DAPAT SABIHIN YAN.

[Siyempre ang ginaya ni John Calvin ay yung nakasulat sa Kasulatan, nagkataon nga lang na pati sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas ay gumaya sa Kasulatan,kaya pare-parehas sila ng posisyon hinggil sa Predestination (Election and Reprobation).]

KAYA NGA SINASABI KO SA YO NA SA INTERPRETATION SILA NAGKA-IBA E. I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT THE TWO PRESENTED THEIR TEACHINGS IN CONFORMITY WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHILE THE OTHER IS NOT. THAT IS ALREADY AN ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE. DO YOU DENY THAT? HA, HA, HA...

O NO. THEIR POSITION ARE NOT THE SAME. CALVIN INVENTED HIS OWN POSITION ON THOSE TERMS WHILE AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE CATHOLIC ON THEIR STAND.

Tungkol naman po sa sinabi mong:

****[GINAYA NI CALVIN ANG KANILANG MGA TERMINOLOGIES. SUBALIT MAGKA-IBA ANG INTERPRETATION NG DALAWA KESA KAY CALVIN. THE TWO REMAINE FAITHFUL TO THE CHURCH OF ROME.

HINDI PORKE PAREHO ANG MGA TERMS AY PAREHO NA NG DOCTRINA.]***

[Pano niyo po nasabing magkaiba sila ng interpretasyon tungkol sa mga terminolohiya na ginamit? Wala po kayong basihan...]

BAKIT IKAW MAY BASEHAN KA NANG SINABI MO NA PARE-PAREHO ANG POSITION NILA? YOU JUST ENNUMERATED TO ME THOSE TERMS AND YOU ARE PATHETICALLY ASSUMING THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTED BASES FOR YOUR CLAIMS.

MY BASIS IS THE OFFICIAL STAND OF MY CHURCH WHICH CONDEMNED CALVIN FOR HERESY ON THOSE ISSUES WHILE ACCEPTED THE POSITIONS OF AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS.

[maliwanag na nagpapalusot lamang po kayo dahil nabuking ko ang pagiging double-standard niyo sa pagkonsulta sa dalawang church fathers na ito.]

FIRST AND FOREMOST, THOMAS IS NOT A CHURCH FATHER. HE LIVED MUCH LATER BEYOND THE PATRISTIC PERIOD SO DON'T PRETEND AS IF YOU ARE ALREADY SUPER INTELLIGENT BECAUSE YOU HAVE ENNUMERATED THEIR TERMS AND THE NAMES OF THEIR BOOKS. HE, HE, HE... THAT'S BASIC IGNORANCE OF FACTS YOU KNOW.

[Simulan natin sa "Sovereign Election", gusto niyo? Gawa tayo ng comparison sa definition of terms nila at sa mga argument at paliwanag nila, tapos tsaka niyo sabihin sa aking iba ang posisyon ni Calvin. Ano game?]

OK GAME!

February 11, 2010 11:12 PM

John Joseph Ras said...

_______

ABE: [O NO. THEIR POSITION ARE NOT THE SAME. CALVIN INVENTED HIS OWN POSITION ON THOSE TERMS WHILE AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE CATHOLIC ON THEIR STAND.]

JR: Haka-haka niyo lang po yan. Sinasabi ko po sa inyo, hindi niyo po kayang patunayan yan. PRAMIS!

__________

ABE: [OK GAME!]

JR: O sige, simulan natin sa view ni Augustine hinggil sa Unconditional Election,

"Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected,— not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe. For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16). For if they had been elected because they had believed, they themselves would certainly have first chosen Him by believing in Him, so that they should deserve to be elected. But He takes away this supposition altogether when He says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." And yet they themselves, beyond a doubt, chose Him when they believed on Him. Whence it is not for any other reason that He says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," than because they did not choose Him that He should choose them, but He chose them that they might choose Him; because His mercy preceded them according to grace, not according to debt.

Therefore He chose them out of the world while He was wearing flesh, but as those who were already chosen in Himself before the foundation of the world. This is the changeless truth concerning predestination and grace. For what is it that the apostle says, "As He has chosen us in Himself before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4)? And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you;" when God should rather have foreknown this very thing, that they themselves would have chosen Him, so that they might deserve to be chosen by Him.

Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with that predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do; but they were elected out of the world with that calling whereby God fulfilled that which He predestinated. For whom He predestinated, them He also called, with that calling, to wit, which is according to the purpose. Not others, therefore, but those whom He predestinated, them He also called; nor others, but those whom He so called, them He also justified; nor others, but those whom He predestinated, called, and justified, them He also glorified; assuredly to that end which has no end.

Therefore God elected believers; but He chose them that they might be so, not because they were already so. The Apostle James says: "Has not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God has promised to them that love Him?" (James 2:5).

By choosing them, therefore; He makes them rich in faith, as He makes them heirs of the kingdom; because He is rightly said to choose that in them, in order to make which in them He chose them. I ask, who can hear the Lord saying, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," and can dare to say that men believe in order to be elected, when they are rather elected to believe; lest against the judgment of truth they be found to have first chosen Christ to whom Christ says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 16:16) [Saint Augustine on Sovereign Predestination, Book I Chapter 34]

See? Augustine believed that God's election is:

1) eternal

2) immutable

3) unconditional

Hindi lang basta sa terminology, kundi pati sa explanation at arguments.

...Palusot?

ABE: [KAYA NGA SINASABI KO SA YO NA SA INTERPRETATION SILA NAGKA-IBA E. I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT THE TWO PRESENTED THEIR TEACHINGS IN CONFORMITY WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHILE THE OTHER IS NOT. THAT IS ALREADY AN ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE. DO YOU DENY THAT? HA, HA, HA...]

JR: Dinedenay ko po!

Bakit? Kasi pano niyo po nasabing ang interpretasyon nina San Agustin at Mang Tomas hinggil sa predestinasyon ay AYON sa posisyon ng simbahang katolika, eh wala ngang OPISYAL na katuruan ang iglesia katolika hinggil sa predestinasyon?

Hindi niyo po ba alam yan? Hanggang ngayon ay nagbabangayan parin sa loob ng simbahan niyo ang mga Molinista (catholic counterpart ng Arminianism) at mga Tomista/Augustinian (catholic counterpart ng Calvinism)

Mukhang marami po kayong matututunan sakin ah.

_______

ABE: [O NO. THEIR POSITION ARE NOT THE SAME. CALVIN INVENTED HIS OWN POSITION ON THOSE TERMS WHILE AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE CATHOLIC ON THEIR STAND.]

JR: Haka-haka niyo lang po yan. Sinasabi ko po sa inyo, hindi niyo po kayang patunayan yan. PRAMIS!

__________

February 11, 2010 11:51 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

HA, HA, HA... SO WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH THAT? WE ARE NOT TEACHING THAT GOD'S ELECITION IS NON ETERNAL, MUTABLE AND CONDITIONAL.

OF COURSE, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES THAT GOD IS ETERNAL AND IMMUTABLE. THESE ARE ESSENTIAL CHARACTERISTICS OF GOD.

SO, DID AUGUSTINE BECOME CALVINIST BECAUSE OF THAT. HA, HA, HA... DREAM ON!!!

February 11, 2010 11:55 PM

John Joseph Ras said...

ABE: [WE ARE NOT TEACHING THAT GOD'S ELECITION IS NON ETERNAL, MUTABLE AND CONDITIONAL. ]

JR: Oh, eh ano po pala ang nire-refute mo sa Calvinistic view of Predestination kung sang-ayon naman po pala kayo kay Augustine, Thomas, at Calvin?

February 12, 2010 12:07 AM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

[JR: Dinedenay ko po!]

THAT IS YOUR MISTAKE.

1. "Let him, therefore, say that the Church at any time has not had in its belief the truth of this predestination and grace, which is now maintained with a more careful heed against the late heretics; let him say this who dares to say that at any time it has not prayed, or not truthfully prayed, as well that unbelievers might believe, as that believers might persevere. And if the Church has always prayed for these benefits, it has always believed them to be certainly God's gifts; nor was it ever right for it to deny that they were foreknown by Him. And thus Christ's Church has never failed to hold the faith of this predestination, which is now being defended with new solicitude against these MODERN HERETICS." [ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, On Predestination of the Saints, Book II, Chapter 65 The Church's Prayers Imply the Church's Faith.]

ST. AUGUSTINE ACKNOWLEDGES THE AUTHORITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO CONDEMN THE HERETICS. CALVIN WAS NOT YET EXISTING DURING HIS TIME. BUT CALVIN IS DECLARED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - THE CHURCH WHEREIN AUGUSTINE WAS A FAITHFUL BISHOP - AS HERETIC.

LOOK AT THE TITLE OF CHAP 65: "The Church's Prayers Imply the Church's Faith." HA, HA, HA... THAT IS NOT CALVIN FAITH, THAT IS NOT LUTHERAN FAITH THAT IS CATHOLIC FAITH. DREAM ON.

2. "But let those who think that I am in error, consider again and again carefully what is here said, lest perchance they themselves may be mistaken. And when, by means of those who read my writings, I become not only wiser, but even more perfect, I acknowledge God's favour to me; and this I especially look for at the hands of the teachers of the Church, if what I write comes into their hands, and they condescend to acknowledge it." [ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, On Predestination of the Saints, Book II, Chapter 68]

ST. AUGUSTINE CONCLUDED HIS TWO VOLUME WORKS ON PREDESTINATION ACKNOWLEDGING THE AUTHORITY OF HIS CHURCH. WHILE CALVIN BECAME A TRAITOR AND REBEL TO THE CHURCH SERVED WITH SO MUCH LOVE BY ST. AUGUSTINE.

ST. AUGUSTINE'S THEOLOGY IS DIFFERS FROM THAT OF CALVIN AS THE FAITHFUL DIFFERS WITH THE TRAITOR.

3."For of this matter, which I am now compelled not only to mention, but even to protect and defend against these new heretics, the Church has never been silent in its prayers, although in its discourses it has not thought that it need be put forth, as there was no adversary compelling it. For when was not prayer made in the Church for unbelievers and its opponents that they should believe? When has any believer had a friend, a neighbour, a wife, who did not believe, and has not asked on their behalf from the Lord for a mind obedient to the Christian faith?" [ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, On Predestination of the Saints, Book II, Chapter 63 The Testimony of the Whole Church in Her Prayers.]

THE TITLE ITSELF ATTEST THAT ST. AUGUSTINE ACKNOWLEDGE THE TESTIMONY OF THE CHURCH... HIS CHURCH - THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND HE BELIEVES THAT NON BELIEVERS ARE BEING DRAWN TO THE TRUE FAITH BY GOD'S GRACE THROUGH THE PRAYER OF THE CHURCH.

4. "And since these things are so, the judgment of the book of Wisdom ought not to be repudiated, since for so long a course of years that book has deserved to be read in the Church of Christ from the station of the readers of the Church of Christ, and to be heard by all Christians, from bishops downwards, even to the lowest lay believers, penitents, and catechumens, with the veneration paid to divine authority." [ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, On Predestination of the Saints, Book I, Chapter 27.— The Book of Wisdom Obtains in the Church the Authority of Canonical Scripture]

RIGHT IN THE FIRST BOOK OF HIS 'PREDESTINATION OF SAINTS' AUGUSTINE DEFENDED THE STAND OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO CONSIDER AS CANONICAL THE BOOK OF WISDOM WHICH CALVIN AND THE REFORMERS REJECTED.

5. "For God is not compelled by fate to come to the help of these infants, and not to come to the help of those—since the case is alike to both. Or shall we think that human affairs in the case of infants are not managed by Divine Providence, but by fortuitous chances, when rational souls are either to be condemned or delivered, although, indeed, not a sparrow falls to the ground without the will of our Father which is in heaven? Matthew 10:29 Or must we so attribute it to the negligence of parents that infants die without baptism, as that heavenly judgments have nothing to do with it; as if they themselves who in this way die badly had of their own will chosen the negligent parents for themselves of whom they were born? What shall I say when an infant expires some time before he can possibly be advantaged by the ministry of baptism? For often when the parents are eager and the ministers prepared for giving baptism to the infants, it still is not given, because God does not choose; since He has not kept it in this life for a little while in order that baptism might be given it. What, moreover, when sometimes aid could be afforded by baptism to the children of unbelievers, that they should not go into perdition, and could not be afforded to the children of believers? In which case it is certainly shown that there is no acceptance of persons with God; otherwise He would rather deliver the children of His worshippers than the children of His enemies." [ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, On Predestination of the Saints, Book II, Chapter 31.— Infants are Not Judged According to that Which They are Foreknown as Likely to Do If They Should Live.]

THE PREDESTINATION OF ST. AUGUSTINE FAVORS INFANT BAPTISM WHICH THE REFORMERS REJECTED.

[Bakit? Kasi pano niyo po nasabing ang interpretasyon nina San Agustin at Mang Tomas hinggil sa predestinasyon ay AYON sa posisyon ng simbahang katolika, eh wala ngang OPISYAL na katuruan ang iglesia katolika hinggil sa predestinasyon?]

THERE IS A OFFICIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON PREDESTINATION. YOU WILL GET THEM ON DIFFERENT OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS INSTEAD ON BEING CONCENTRATED IN ONE. SO THAT WE CAN OFFICIALLY SAY THAT WE DISAGREE WITH CALVIN ON PREDESTINATION AND THAT EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE SOME SIMILARITIES BETWEEN ST. AUGUSTINE-ST. THOMAS WITH THAT OF CALVIN, THERE IS ALSO ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCES ENOUGH TO OFFICIALLY REJECT THAT OF CALVIN AS HERESY.

FOR INSTANCE YOU CAN CHECK IT ON THE CANONS AND DECREES OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT AND IN THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

[Hindi niyo po ba alam yan?]

I KNOW THAT YOU ARE PRETENDING TO BE KNOWLEDGEABLE OF OUR CATHOLIC FAITH. NICE TRY.

[Hanggang ngayon ay nagbabangayan parin sa loob ng simbahan niyo ang mga Molinista (catholic counterpart ng Arminianism) at mga Tomista/Augustinian (catholic counterpart ng Calvinism)]

WE ARE AT PEACE AMONG OURSELVES. UNLIKE THE SO-CALLED REFORMISTS WHO ARE SPLITTING AND SPLITTING INTO DENOMINATIONS WITHOUT DOCTRINAL AND ECCLESIAL COMMUNION WITH ONE ANOTHER.

THE MOLINISTS AND THE THOMISTS WERE DEBATING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF PREDESTINATION BUT TO CLAIM THEM AS ARMINISTS OR CALVINISTS COUNTERPART OF CATHOLICISM IS PREPOSTEROUS AND MERE HOT AIR. THAT IS JUST A PRODUCT OF YOUR OWN HALLUCINATION BECAUSE THE THOMISTS AND THE MOLINISTS WILL SURELY DENY THAT THEY ARE SUCH. IN FACT, THE PROPONENTS OF THESE SCHOOL OF THOUGHTS JOINED TOGETHER IN THE COUNCIL OF TRENT TO DENOUNCE THE HERESY OF LUTHER AND CALVIN.

[Mukhang marami po kayong matututunan sakin ah.]

YES, I AM DISCOVERING YOUR IGNORANCE OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY.

_______

ABE: [O NO. THEIR POSITION ARE NOT THE SAME. CALVIN INVENTED HIS OWN POSITION ON THOSE TERMS WHILE AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE CATHOLIC ON THEIR STAND.]

[JR: Haka-haka niyo lang po yan.]

HA, HA, HA... CALVIN IS DENOUNCED BY MY CHURCH AS HERETIC. HA, HA, HA... AND IT IS DONE IN AN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL. HA, HA, HA...

IKAW, WHAT CHURCH DO YOU BELONG? WHAT IS THE NAME OF YOUR CHURCH? I WANT TO READ ITS DOCUMENTS AND OFFICIAL TEACHINGS SO THAT I CAN CHECK IF YOUR STATEMENTS CORRESPOND TO THE OFFICIAL TEACHING OF YOUR CHURCH.

[Sinasabi ko po sa inyo, hindi niyo po kayang patunayan yan. PRAMIS]

I CAN PROVE THAT TO YOU AND SO CONTINUE YOUR PRESENTATIONS OF PROOFS THAT AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE CALVINISTS. THAT YOU CANNOT PROVE. PROMISE.