REFUTING ANTI-CATHOLIC APOLOGIST JOHN JOSEPH RAS ON PREDESTINATION OF ST. AUGUSTINE, ST. THOMAS AQUINAS AND JOHN CALVIN, Part 3

St. Augusine of Hippo, Bishop and Doctor of the Church

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John Joseph Ras said...

Kung di out of context, out of topic naman yung ma quotes niyo kay San Agustin. Alalahanin niyo po, yung Calvinistic view of Predestination [election & reprobation] po ang pinaguusapan natin, hindi infant baptism, hindi rin ang book of Wisdom. Stay on topic lang po tayo.

Hintayin niyo po ang tugon ko na sa blog ko lang ipapaskil (para tiyak na maipa-publish).

February 12, 2010 4:21 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ST. AUGUSTINE AND THE HERETIC CALVIN:

1. Calvin believed, in opposition to St. Augustine, that God had predestined the Fall of Adam, and thus, before sin had ever entered the world, had predestined the elect to eternal life and the rest to eternal damnation. Calvin spells this out very clearly in his Institutes of the Christian Religion.

Calvin writes:

“The Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world… Here, surely the fall of Adam is not presupposed as preceding God’s decree in time; but it is what God determined before all ages that is shown, when he willed to heal the misery of mankind” [Institutes of Christian Religion 2:12:5].

Elsewhere Calvin writes:

“And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision” [Institutes 3:23:7; see also 3:24:12].

FOR AUGUSTINE PREDESTINATION REFERS ONLY TO THE DECISION TO REDEEM AND NOT TO THE ACT OF ABANDONING THE FALLEN HUMANITY TO DAMNATION:

The renown Protestant theologian Alister McGrath explains:

“Predestination, for Augustine, refers only to the divine decision to redeem, no to the act of abandoning the remainder of fallen humanity. For Calvin, logical rigour demands that God actively chooses to redeem or to damn. God cannot be thought of as doing something by default: he is active and sovereign in his actions. Therefore God actively wills the salvation of those who will be saved and the damnation of those who will not... Salvation thus lies outside the control of the individual, who is powerless to alter the situation” [Reformation Thought, 2nd edition, 1993, p. 125, 127].

Francis Wendell concurs with McGrath: “…on this particular point Calvin diverges from St. Augustine, for whom the elect alone are the object of a special decision which withdraws them from the ‘massa perditionis’ while the preprobate are simply abandoned by God to the ruin they have incurred by their sins [De correptione et gratia, 7, 12, M.L. xliv, 923].

[Kung di out of context, out of topic naman yung ma quotes niyo kay San Agustin. Alalahanin niyo po, yung Calvinistic view of Predestination [election & reprobation] po ang pinaguusapan natin, hindi infant baptism, hindi rin ang book of Wisdom. Stay on topic lang po tayo.]

HA, HA, HA... ABA E MALALA KA NA PALA E. I GOT THOSE QUOTES FROM THE BOOK OF ST. AUGUSTINE ON PREDESTINATION OF SAINTS WHICH YOU YOURSELF HAD GIVEN HERE. AND I WAS DELIGHTED THAT YOU GOT IT FROM THE ROMAN CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA COLLECTIONS. HA, HA, HA...

THOSE TOPICS ARE PART OF THE PREDESTINATION EXPLANATIONS OF ST. AUGUSTINE.

WHY? ARE YOU IGNORANT THAT THE PREDESTINATION BOOK OF ST. AUGUSTINE IS ALSO WHERE HE EXPOSED HIS DEFENSE OF INFANT BAPTISM AGAINST THE PELAGIANS? AKALA KO BA MATALINO KA SA AUGUSTINIAN THEOLOGICAL OPUS THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTED? HA, HA, HA...

YOU HAVE NOT IMAGINED THAT AUGUSTINE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PRAYER AND THE TESTIMONY OF THE CHURCH IN THAT BOOK. HA, HA, HA... THE PREDESTINATION THEOLOGY OF AUGUSTINE HAS AN ECCLESIOLOGICAL DIMENSION WHICH IS ABSENT IN CALVIN BECAUSE CALVIN REJECTED THE CHURCH AND REPLACED IT WITH SOLA SCRIPTURA, AN UNBIBLICAL DOCTRINE. HA, HA, HA...

[Hintayin niyo po ang tugon ko na sa blog ko lang ipapaskil (para tiyak na maipa-publish).]

ANG KAPAL NG MUKA MONG I-IMPLY NA HINDI AKO NAGPA-PUBLISH NG MGA COMMENTS MO. HA, HA, HA... LAHAT NG COMMENTS MO AY PUBLISHED DITO. SOME CAME LATE BECAUSE I WAS DEBATING THE ADD PEOPLE EARLIER. BUT THEY ARE NOW PUBLISHED. HA, HA, HA...

February 12, 2010 4:49 PM

John Joseph Ras said...

ABE: [I AM NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH THE HERETIC CALVIN. I OPPOSE YOUR CLAIM THAT STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS ARE CALVINIST.

YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN ME YET THAT STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS ARE CALVINISTS. HE, HE, HE...]

JR: Teka, sa lahat kailan ko po ba sinabing Calvinist sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas?

Ang sinasabi ko po, ang view nilang tatlo ay almost identical with regards to PREDESTINATION.

Augustine, Aquinas, and Calvin altogether affirmed the Sovereignty of God in Salvation. They believed that God's election is:

1. Eternal - meaning, it has been decreed from eternity past.

2. Unconditional - meaning, God's choice of people to Salvation is NOT based upon foreseen worthiness upon the chosen individual such as faith, good works, or perseverane. God did not chose them because they would be so, but in order that they might be so.

3. Immutable - meaning, God's decree of election will be infallibly fulfilled according to His sovereignty and unfailing wisdom, that in the end, all who are unconditionally chosen to eternal life will be saved to the fullest.

Ganyan po ba ang position niyo sa Predestination? Hindi naman eh. Pero si Calvin, Oo.

Hindi niyo po ba napagaralan yan sa seminary niyo? Hindi niyo po ba alam na up to now ay nagbabangayan parin ang mga Dominican (i.e. Thomist) at mga Jesuit (i.e. Molinist) sa loob ng bakod niyo?

Mabuti pa ako alam ko.

ABE: [THERE IS A OFFICIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON PREDESTINATION. YOU WILL GET THEM ON DIFFERENT OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS INSTEAD ON BEING CONCENTRATED IN ONE.]

JR: Pakilagay nga po dito ang OPISYAL na detalyadong posisyon ng RCC hinggil sa Predestinasyon galing sa katesismo niyo?

February 12, 2010 5:36 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

[JR: Teka, sa lahat kailan ko po ba sinabing Calvinist sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas?

Ang sinasabi ko po, ang view nilang tatlo ay almost identical with regards to PREDESTINATION.]

HA, HA, HA... ANG IBIG MONG SABIHIN AY 'IDENTICAL' LANG ANG MGA ARAL NILA SA PREDESTINATION? HA, HA, HA... ANO ANG IBIG SABIHIN MO NG IDENTICAL? PAREHO ANG TERMS O PAREHO ANG THEOLOHIYA?

[Augustine, Aquinas, and Calvin altogether affirmed the Sovereignty of God in Salvation.]

AUGUSTINE AND AQUINAS ARE TEACHING IN FIDELITY TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT GOD IS SOVEREIGN IN SALVATION. THAT IS NOT AUGUSTINIAN OR THOMIST BUT CATHOLIC.

[They believed that God's election is:

1. Eternal - meaning, it has been decreed from eternity past.]

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WITH OUR TWO GREAT THEOLOGIANS AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE TEACHING THAT GOD'S ELECTION IS ETERNAL BECAUSE GOD IS ETERNAL. BUT, SINCE MAN IS NOT ETERNAL AND THE WORLD IS FINATE, SALVATION OCCURS IN THE FINITE CONDITION OF MAN.

2. Unconditional - meaning, God's choice of people to Salvation is NOT based upon foreseen worthiness upon the chosen individual such as faith, good works, or perseverane. God did not chose them because they would be so, but in order that they might be so.]

OOPS, THAT MUST BE QUALIFIED. WE AGREE WITH THE TERM BUT AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE NOT REJECCTING GOOD WORKS.

IN FACT, THE BOOK II OF ST. AUGUSTINE'S ON PREDESTINATION OF SAINTS IS ENTITLED THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE. PART OF THE GRACE BEING GIVEN MY GOD TO THE ELECT IS THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE, THAT IS, THE CAPACITY TO DO GOOD WORKS.

ST. THOMAS AQUINAS CONCURS:

In Summa Theologia Ia, Q.23, Article 3 On Predestination he explains that "As long as a free creature has not attained his goal, he may perversely turn aside and fail to attain it."

THIS IS ST. THOMAS AQUINAS' DOCTRINE OF REPROBATION: "Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of that providence to PERMIT some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation... Therefore, as predestination includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin." [Summa Theologia, vol. 1, Christian Classics ed. p. 127]

THUS, YOUR REJECTION OF GOOD WORKS ON THE PART OF THE BELIEVERS DOESN'T FIT IN THE THEOLOGY OF ST. AUGUSTINE AND OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS.

Much more:

Summa Theologiae Ia, Q. 23, Art. 8 [Christian Classics edition, p. 133]:

"Wherefore we must say otherwise that in predestination two things are to be considered - namaly, THE DIVINE PREORDINATION; and its EFFECTS. As regards the former, in no possible way can predestination be furthered by the prayers of the saints. For it is notdue to their prayers that anyone is predestined by God. AS REGARDS THE LATTER, predestination is sad to be HELPED BY THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, and by other GOOD WORKS... whether it be one's own prayers, or those of another, or other GOOD WORKS, and such like, WITHOUT WHICH ONE WOULD NOT ATTAIN TO SALVATION."

THAT'S FOR YOUR REJECTION OF GOOD WORKS FOR THOMAS AQUINAS. NOW, TELL ME IF THAT DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION IS IDENTICAL WITH CALVIN. HA, HA, HA...

[3. Immutable - meaning, God's decree of election will be infallibly fulfilled according to His sovereignty and unfailing wisdom, that in the end, all who are unconditionally chosen to eternal life will be saved to the fullest.]

UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU CALVIN DIDN'T TEACH ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE DECREED OR ELECTED TO SALVATION HE ALSO TAUGHT THAT GOD ELECTED OTHERS TO DAMNATION. HA, HA, HA... THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE THEOLOGY OF STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS.

[Ganyan po ba ang position niyo sa Predestination? Hindi naman eh. Pero si Calvin, Oo.]

MAY ILANG PAGKAKATULAD SUBALIT MAY ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCES. ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCES...

[Hindi niyo po ba napagaralan yan sa seminary niyo?]

KULANG KULANG ANG PINAG-ARALAN MO. MABABAW. YOU ARE CHEAPENING THE POSITION OF CALVIN AND YOU ARE DISTORTING THE THEOLOGY OF AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS.

BETTER FOR YOU TO STUDY AGAIN. HA, HA, HA...

[Hindi niyo po ba alam na up to now ay nagbabangayan parin ang mga Dominican (i.e. Thomist) at mga Jesuit (i.e. Molinist) sa loob ng bakod niyo?]

THE DOMINICANS OF UST AND THE JESUITS OF ATENEO ARE VERY MUCH AT PEACE. WE WERE TOGETHER ON SO MANY OCCASIONS YET THAT DEBATE IS NOT AS YOU WANT TO MAKE IT APPEAR.

THE DOMINICANS ARE ANTI-REFORMATION AS WELL AS THE JESUITS. HA, HA, HA... DREAM ON.

GIVE ME ONE OCCASION WHEN THE THEOLOGIANS OF TWO SCHOOLS DEBATED OR FOUGHT AGAINST EACH OTHER BECAUSE OF THOSE ISSUES.

[Mabuti pa ako alam ko.]

NOW I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING. HA, HA, HA...

[Pakilagay nga po dito ang OPISYAL na detalyadong posisyon ng RCC hinggil sa Predestinasyon galing sa katesismo niyo?]

ABA, THAT IS TOO MUCH. HE, HE, HE... THE OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ARE VOLUMINOUS. WE HAVE SEVERAL ECUMENICAL COUNCILS, PAPAL DECREES, SYNOD DOCUMENTS AND CATECHETICAL MANUALS.

WHY DON'T YOU PRESENT CALVIN'S THEOLOGY OF PREDESTINATION HERE AND THEN LET ME CRITIQUE IT USING THE OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church states:

"According to him [Calvin], before the Fall and even before creation, God, in his eternal counsels, predestined some of His creatures to salvation and others to damnation. This entails that God wills not only the reprobation of the damned but also the sin which leads to it, as he who wills the end must will the means. This doctrine was later, however, rejected by the more moderate Calvinists." (edited by F.L. Cross, Oxford Univ. Press, revised edition, 1983, 224, "Calvinism")

Alister McGrath, who published a biography of Calvin in 1990, writes:

"Predestination, for Augustine, refers only to the divine decision to redeem, not to the act of abandoning the remainder of fallen humanity.

For Calvin, logical rigour demands that God actively chooses to redeem or to damn. God cannot be thought of as doing something by default: he is active and sovereign in his actions. Therefore God actively wills the salvation of those who will be saved and the damnation of those who will not." (Reformation Thought, 2nd edition., Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1993, 125)

The Catholic critique is not that Calvinism isn't logical or consistent; rather, that it is consistent to the detriment of God's goodness (especially in its supralapsarian variety). Its logic flows - unfortunately - consistently from its premises, by and large. It is primarily an issue of God's goodness and justice.

THE BALL IS ON YOU JOHN JOSEPH RAS TO SHOW THAT AUGUSTINE AND AQUINAS DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION ARE IDENTICAL WITH THAT OF CALVIN.

February 12, 2010 8:37 PM