REFUTING ANTI-CATHOLIC APOLOGIST JOHN JOSEPH RAS ON PREDESTINATION OF ST. AUGUSTINE, ST. THOMAS AQUINAS AND JOHN CALVIN, Part 7

St. Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo with St. Gregory the Great, The Bishop of Rome.

John Joseph Ras said...

[HA, HA, HA... BECAUSE CALVIN DIDN'T EXPLAIN HIS REPROBATION AS GOD 'PERMITTING' THE FALLING AWAY OF THE SINNER AS THOMAS AQUINAS DID IN SUMMA Ia, Q.23, Art. 3. ON THE CONTRARY, CALVIN SAID THAT GOD 'DOOMED' OTHERS BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES. CITATIONS HAVE BEEN GIVEN FOR THESE. WHERE IS YOUR CITATION FOR YOUR CLAIM?]

So you are MERELY assuming based on your PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of what Calvin said on the "piece" of quote from his Book?

JR: [2) X and Y are both sinners, that is, WORTHY TO BE DOOMED in hell.]

ABE: ARE THE UNBORN SOULS ALREADY SINNERS?

CALVIN SAID THAT GOD DECREED THEIR DOOM BEFORE THE AGES... SO HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THEY ARE ALREADY SINNERS? YOU AND CALVIN HAVE FALLEN INTO CONTRADICTIONS.

____________

Common sense... God ALREADY KNEW THEY WOULD BE SO for he knew already that all of mankind will Fall through Adam. He knew because he is omniscient. He knew because he permitted it. And since it is permitted, it is included in his divine, immutable decree.

X and Y are sinners in God's foresight even before they were born. So tell me, if in case God did not chose any of them unto Salvation, is God unjust?

Hindi ba ayon sa katarungan ng Diyos ay karapat-dapat lamang parusahan lahat ng makasalanan?

February 15, 2010 10:30 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

****[HA, HA, HA... BECAUSE CALVIN DIDN'T EXPLAIN HIS REPROBATION AS GOD 'PERMITTING' THE FALLING AWAY OF THE SINNER AS THOMAS AQUINAS DID IN SUMMA Ia, Q.23, Art. 3. ON THE CONTRARY, CALVIN SAID THAT GOD 'DOOMED' OTHERS BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES. CITATIONS HAVE BEEN GIVEN FOR THESE. WHERE IS YOUR CITATION FOR YOUR CLAIM?]****

[So you are MERELY assuming based on your PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of what Calvin said on the "piece" of quote from his Book?]

YOU ARE A VERY DISHONEST PERSON. JUST TO PUT AWAY YOURSELF IN SHAME YOU ARE CUNNINGLY DISTORTING THINGS. I AM SUPPORTED BY GREAT THEOLOGICAL AUTHORS AND RENOWN THEOLOGIANS FROM THE SIDE OF THE REFORMISTS:

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church states:

"According to him [Calvin], before the Fall and even before creation, God, in his eternal counsels, predestined some of His creatures to salvation and others to damnation. This entails that God wills not only the reprobation of the damned but also the sin which leads to it, as he who wills the end must will the means. This doctrine was later, however, rejected by the more moderate Calvinists." (edited by F.L. Cross, Oxford Univ. Press, revised edition, 1983, 224, "Calvinism")

Alister McGrath, who published a biography of Calvin in 1990, writes:

"Predestination, for Augustine, refers only to the divine decision to redeem, not to the act of abandoning the remainder of fallen humanity.

For Calvin, logical rigour demands that God actively chooses to redeem or to damn. God cannot be thought of as doing something by default: he is active and sovereign in his actions. Therefore God actively wills the salvation of those who will be saved and the damnation of those who will not." (Reformation Thought, 2nd edition., Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1993, 125)

BOTH CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS SCHOLARS ARE AGGREEING WITH MY CONCLUSIONS. THE SAME SCHOLARS ALSO ATTEST THAT CALVIN DIFFERS FROM THESE TWHO SAINTS.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CANNOT PROVE YOUR ASSERTIONS FROM CALVIN MUCH MORE FROM ST. THOMAS AND ST. AUGUSTINE.

YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON. I APPRECIATE YOUR MODERATION. BUT PLEASE BE HONEST. YOUR SCHOLARSHIP ON THE MATTER IS VERY SHALLOW AND UNFOUNDED.

February 15, 2010 10:39 PM

John Joseph Ras said...

[YES, BUT ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO THEY ARE. EXCEPT THOSE WHOM THE BIBLE ALREADY MENTIONED EXPLICITLY AS CHOSEN BY GOD: MARY, THE APOSTLES, JOHN THE BAPTIST, THE PROPHETS, ETC.]

___________

O ayun naman pala eh...

Naniniwala ka rin pala na ang Paghirang ng Diyos ay...

1) Eternal (decreed from eternity past)

2) Unconditional (not based on merits)

3) Immutable (certain)

Yan din po ang paniniwala ni Calvin eh?

Saan po diyan sa mga sinipi niyo sinasabi na Calvin REJECTED the idea that God permitted the Fall?

Huwag niyo po sanang idaan sa paramihan ng letra at mga salita. Lagyan niyo po ng sustansya ang mga post niyo para naman convincing.

February 15, 2010 10:49 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

[Common sense... God ALREADY KNEW THEY WOULD BE SO for he knew already that all of mankind will Fall through Adam. He knew because he is omniscient.]

YOU ARE OUT OF SENSE.

FOREKNOWING IS DIFFERENT FROM FOREDOOMING OR FOREDAMNING. HA, HA, HA... THE GOD OF CALVIN DOOMED FROM ETERNITY THE SOULS WHO ARE NOT YET SINNERS.

THE REASON WHY THE FINAL JUDGMENT IS RESERVED AT THE END IS BASED ON THE JUSTICE OF GOD. IF GOD MADE THE FINAL JUDGMENT TO DAMN OR TO DOOM PRIOR TO CREATION THEN HE IS THE ROOT AND SOURCE OF ALL EVIL IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING MORAL AND PRACTICAL EVIL.

[He knew because he permitted it. And since it is permitted, it is included in his divine, immutable decree.]

THAT IS WHY THE GOD OF CALVIN IS EVIL. THAT IS WHY THAT DOCTRINE IS SATANIC. THAT DOCTRINE DESTROYS THE VERY ESSENCE OF GOD AS JUST, GOOD AND LOVE.

[X and Y are sinners in God's foresight even before they were born. So tell me, if in case God did not chose any of them unto Salvation, is God unjust?

[Hindi ba ayon sa katarungan ng Diyos ay karapat-dapat lamang parusahan lahat ng makasalanan?]

IT IS EVIL TO DOOM A PERSON WITHOUT HIM HAVING COMMITTED A CRIME. EVEN ON THE CROSS WHEN JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED HE WAS CALLING FOR DIVINE MERCY ON THE SINNERS: "FATHER, FORGIVE THEM... THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY DO." THAT IS THE CHRISTIAN GOD. HE IS NOT DAMNING OR DOOMING BUT HE WAS SAVING WITH ALL HIS HEART UNTIL THE TIME OF JUDGMENTS COME.

JUST IMAGINE IF CHRIST HAD SAID: "I AM ONLY DYING FOR SOME... YOU ARE DOOMED ALREADY. I DECREED BEFORE THE AGES THAT YOU ARE DOOMED!" THAT IS TERRIBLE. THAT IS WHY THE GOD OF CALVIN IS NOT THE CHRISTIAN GOD. IT IS SO OPPOSED TO THE LORD JESUS. THE GOOD SHEPHERED SEARCHES FOR HIS LOST SHEEP. HE LOVES EVEN THE SINNERS. HE IS A SAVIOR BUT NOT THE DAMNATOR.

THE GOD OF CALVIN IS DAMNATOR!!!

[O ayun naman pala eh...

Naniniwala ka rin pala na ang Paghirang ng Diyos ay...

1) Eternal (decreed from eternity past)

2) Unconditional (not based on merits)

3) Immutable (certain)

Yan din po ang paniniwala ni Calvin eh?]

E HINDI NAMAN ABOUT PREDESTINATION TO GLORY ANG PAGKAKAIBA E. THE DOCTRINE OF DAMNATION TO THE SOULS FROM ETERNITY. THEN THE LOST OF FREE WILL IN MAN. WE BELIEVE THAT FREE WILL IS NOT LOST. BECAUSE WE ARE FREE.

February 15, 2010 10:55 PM

John Joseph Ras said...

[IT IS EVIL TO DOOM A PERSON WITHOUT HIM HAVING COMMITTED A CRIME.]

Uulitin ko... God KNEW already that they would fall with Adam, X and Y alike (and the rest of mankind). In God's foresight, they are already sinners. Do you agree or not?

February 15, 2010 11:04 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

[Saan po diyan sa mga sinipi niyo sinasabi na Calvin REJECTED the idea that God permitted the Fall?]

YOU WERE THE ONE WHO TOLD ME THAT THE REPROBATION OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS AND CALVIN ARE THE SAME. THEN WHEN I SHOWED YOU THAT FOR THOMAS REPROBATION IS SIMPLY GOD PERMITTING THE SINNER TO FALL OR TO COMMIT SIN. WHILE CALVIN DIDN'T TEACH THAT WAY. INSTEAD HIS GOD IS ETERNALLY DAMNING.

IF YOU CAN PROVE THAT CALVIN DIDN'T REJECT 'GOD'S PERMITTING' WILL IT BE HELPFUL TO YOUR CAUSE? HA, HA, HA... NO. BECAUSE YOU FAILED TO SHOW THAT INDEED THEY ARE SIMILAR OR IDENTICAL.

PLEASE DON'T FORGET THAT YOU ARE THE ONE TRYING TO PROVE TO ME THAT THEY ARE SIMILAR. SO FAR, EXCEPT THE TERMS THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT.

[Huwag niyo po sanang idaan sa paramihan ng letra at mga salita. Lagyan niyo po ng sustansya ang mga post niyo para naman convincing.]

LET OUR READERS SEE WHO AMONG US IS ILLOGICAL AND LACKING IN SUBSTANCE. ANYWAY, WE ARE BEING READ CLOSELY BY THE APOLOGISTS OF BEREANS FROM BOTH CAMPS AND MUCH MORE. INVITE YOUR PASTORS TO READ THE EXCHANGE AND SEE IF THEY WILL BE PROUD OF YOUR DEFENSE OF THE EVIL-GOD OF JOHN CALVIN.

[Uulitin ko... God KNEW already that they would fall with Adam, X and Y alike (and the rest of mankind). In God's foresight, they are already sinners. Do you agree or not?]

AN UNCOMMITTED CRIME IS NOT A CRIME. EVEN IN THE BIBLE GOD GIVES CHANCES TO HIS PEOPLE. IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, HE KEEPS FORGIVINNG EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE SINNING REPEATEDLY. EACH TIME THEY REPENT HE FORGIVES. THAT BIBLICAL IMAGE OF GOD IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE HEARTLESS GOD OF CALVIN. YOUR GOD IS EVIL.

February 15, 2010 11:11 PM