REFUTING ANTI-CATHOLIC APOLOGIST JOHN JOSEPH RAS ON PREDESTINATION OF ST. AUGUSTINE, ST. THOMAS AQUINAS AND JOHN CALVIN, Part 6

St. Thomas Aquinas, the Angelic Doctor. The greatest theologian-philosopher of the Catholic Church.

John Joseph Ras said...

[DOES IT GIVE YOU CONSOLATION THAT THE WORD ELECTION WAS NOT USED INSTEAD HE 'DOOMED' THEM BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE ONCE FOR ALL? HE, HE, HE...]

Hindi mo po naiintindihan ang mga sinisitas mo kay Calvin. For Calvin, God 'doomed' them in the sense that God DID NOT chose them unto Salvation. It doesn't mean that God capriciously 'doomed' them unto damnation, but instead they are 'doomed' out of necessity.

1) There is X and Y.

2) X and Y are both sinners, that is, WORTHY TO BE DOOMED in hell.

3) God chose X unto Salvation. (The decree to redeem).

4) BY NECESSITY, Y is Reprobated, that is, left in his state of sinfulness apart from any saving grace of God, ready to be finally dommed in hell. (The decree to doom by permission)

5) God's decree to doom (or reprobate) Y is MOST RIGHTEOUS since Y is a sinner in the first place.

6) God's decree to save (or elect) X is MOST GRACIOUS because X deserves nothing but doom due to his sins and transgressions.

Kuha niyo po?

JR: [God decreed the Fall PERMISSIVELY.]

ABE: [WHERE DID CALVIN WROTE THAT? CITATION PLEASE.]

____________

JR: Since kayo po ang nag-assume na "THE GOD OF CALVIN DOES NOT PERMIT FALLING AWAY", diba dapat ako ang maghanap sa inyo ng citation kung SAAN po ba sinabi ni Calvin yan?

February 15, 2010 9:31 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

[Hindi niyo po ba nakita ang sabi diyan?

"...it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity..."]

THAT IS WHY CALVIN IS TRYING TO SAVE FACE HERE, LIKE YOU. BUT, HIS CONTRADICTION IS ALREADY APPARENT. HE ATTRIBUTES REPROBATION TO TWO: MAN AND THE ETERNAL DECREE OF GOD. NOW THAT QUOTE:

"...it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity..."

IS CONTRADICTORY TO HIS PREVIOUS STAND GIVEN IN THE EARLIER EXCHANGES THAT AFTER THE FALL ADAM LOST THE FREE WILL. HOW CAN THERE BE HUMAN PERSONAL INIQUITY IF MAN DOES NOT HAVE FREE WILL ANYMORE. HE LOST IT THROUGH SIN.

SO, IN THE ABSENCE OF FREE WILL THE INIQUITY OF MAN MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO THE DIVINE DECREE WHO WILLED THOSE SOULS FOR DAMNATION. THEN GOOD IS NO LONGER AN ABSOLUTE MORAL GOOD BECAUSE HE WILLS EVIL BY ITSELF.

[Ibig sabihin, makatarungan ang Diyos na sila'y hatulan sa kaparusahan.]

HOW CAN THEY BE BLAMED FOR THEIR SINS IF THE GOD OF CALVIN IS THE ONE WHO DECREED THEM TO DO THE INIQUITY OR NOT TO DO THE GOOD THAT MUST BE DONE?

[Eh ano ngayon kung hindi sila pinili? May obligasyon ba ang Diyos na piliin sila?]

GOD IS NOT OBLIGATED BY HIS CREATURES BUT HE IS OBLIGATED BY HIMSELF:

*HE IS THE GOD OF LOVE. HOW CAN THE LOVING GOD WHO IS KIND AND MERCIFUL FROM ETERNITY TO ETERNITY DOOMED SOULS WITHOUT HAVING DONE EVIL OUT OF THEIR OWN WILL?

* HE IS THE SUPREME GOOD. THE SUPREME GOOD AND TRUE LOVE DOESN'T DELIGHT IN EVIL THINGS AND SEEK DESTRUCTION OF OTHERS:

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love dLOVE DOES NOT DELIGHT IN EVIL but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. [1 CORINTHIANS 13]

THE GOD OF CALVIN DELIGHTS IN EVIL... DOOMING SOULS TO ETERNAL FIRE FOR THE THINGS THAT THEY HAVE DONE WITHOUT THEM WILLING IT.

GOD ALWAYS PROTECTS BUT THE GOD OF CALVIN ETERNALLY CONDEMNS AND DOOMS. WHAT AN EVIL GOD.

[UNFAIR po ba ang Diyos kung pumili siya ng ilan, at iwanan naman sa pagkakasala at kaparusahan (doom) ang iba na hindi pinili?]

YES. IF YOU JOIN THE CONTEST AND THEN THE RULE IS DECREED FOR THE CHOSEN WINNER AND YOU ARE DOOMED TO LOOSE BY PRIOR DECREE OF THE ORGANIZER THEN THERE IS INJUSTICE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT? IS THAT JUSTICE? THAT IS INJUSTICE. THERE IS NO FAIRNESS. GOD CREATED SOULS SIMPLY TO BE DAMNED. THE HUMAN INVENTORS ARE DAMNING THINGS BUT HOW CAN GOD WILLED FROM ETERNITY THE DAMNATIONS OF HIS OWN IMAGES AND LIKENESSES?

[Ibig sabihin opisyal na turo sa RCC ang UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION nina San Agustin at Mang Tomas?]

PLEASE DEFINED UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF OCCASIONS WHEN WE USE THE SAME TERM BUT WE DO NOT MEAN THE SAME JUST LIKE JUSTIFICATION, PREDESTINATION, REPROBATION, ETC.

THEN PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE IS THAT IN THE WORKS OF OUR SAINTS AND OF CALVIN.

[Isa pang tanong, naniniwala po ba kayo (gaya ng pinaniniwalaan nina San Agustin, Mang Tomas, at Calvin) na walang sinuman sa mga hinirang ang tuluyang mapapahamak?]

YES, BUT ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO THEY ARE. EXCEPT THOSE WHOM THE BIBLE ALREADY MENTIONED EXPLICITLY AS CHOSEN BY GOD: MARY, THE APOSTLES, JOHN THE BAPTIST, THE PROPHETS, ETC.

THE CLAIM OF THE BORN AGAIN THAT THEY ARE ETERNALLY SAVED IS PREPOSTEROUS AND PATHETIC BECAUSE SALVATION IS AN ON-GOING PROCESS AND SO IS JUSTIFICATION, REDEEMPTION AND FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

****[THE POSITION OF ST. AUGUSTINE AND ST. THOMAS AQUINAS ARE RESPECTFUL OF THE FREE WILL OF MAN. GOD SIMPLY GIVES 'PERMISSION' TO FALL AWAY ["TO PERMIT"] BUT THE GOD OF CALVIN DOES NOT PERMIT FALLING AWAY INSTEAD:]*****

[Eh ganyan din ang paniniwala ni John Calvin eh?]

NO, NO, NO... HA, HA, HA... VERY FAR. FOR AQUINAS REPROBATION IS ATTRIBUTED TO MAN WHILE FOR CALVIN HE ATTRIBUTES IT TO MAN AND TO THE ETERNAL DECREE OF GOD. SIEMPRE, ULTIMATELY IT IS GOD WHO WILLS THE DOOM OF HIS OWN CREATURE FOR CALVIN. A GOD WHO DIRECTLY WILLS EVIL FOR HIS CREATURES.

[Tungkol naman sa free will, ang "free will" na tinututulan ni John Calvin ay ang "free will" ayon sa depinisyon ng kanyang mga contemporary opponents.]

HA, HA, HA... PALUSOT MO NA LANG YAN. E HE ARGUED THAT ADAM LOST IT AFTER THE FALL SO, CONSEQUENTLY, ALL HUMANITY IS DEPRIVED OF FREE WILL.

SO, ADAM AND THE HUMAN RACE ARE CALVIN'S OPPONENTS. HA, HA, HA... CITATION FOR YOUR CLAIM PLEASE.

[Hindi mo po naiintindihan ang mga sinisitas mo kay Calvin. For Calvin, God 'doomed' them in the sense that God DID NOT chose them unto Salvation. It doesn't mean that God capriciously 'doomed' them unto damnation, but instead they are 'doomed' out of necessity.]

THE GOD OF CALVIN IS NOT A JUST GOD THEREFORE HE IS CAPRICIOUS. UNJUST AND EVIL. UNFAIR AND UNLOVING. WHAT IS SURPRISING IS THE WAY YOU ARE DEFEDING THIS EVIL GOD. WHAT IS EVIL IS BECOMING GOOD TO YOU JUST TO DEFEND CALVIN EVEN IF HE IS BRINGING YOUR SOUL TO HELL BY HIS HERESIES.

THE POSITION OF CALVIN IS CONTRARY TO THE BIBLICAL DOCTRINE OF THE UNIVERSALITY OF SALVATION: GOD WISHES ALL TO BE SAVED. BUT NOT ALL ARE SAVED BECAUSE OTHERS DISOBEY GOD OR REFUSES HIS GRACE OR WERE TEMPTED BY SIN.

GOD IS LOVE. HE LOVES ALL HIS CREATURES. HE CANNOT BUT LOVE BECAUSE HE IS BY NATURE AND BY ESSENCE LOVE PERSONIFIED. HE IS LOVE ITSELF. HE IS PERFECT LOVE AND SUPREME GOOD AND SOURCE OF ALL GOOD. HE CANNOT WILL EVIL. EVIL IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH HIM.

THE POSITION OF CALVIN IS THAT GOD WILLED NOT TO LOVE OTHERS EVEN BEFORE THEY CAN ACT TO DISOBEY HIM. SO EVEN WHEN THEY ARE NOT YET SINNERS THEY ARE ALREADY DOOMED. THIS IS LIKE ABORTION. REJECTING THE PERSON AS UNWANTED EVEN BEFORE HE CAN COMMIT EVIL.

[1) There is X and Y.]

OK

[2) X and Y are both sinners, that is, WORTHY TO BE DOOMED in hell.]

ARE THE UNBORN SOULS ALREADY SINNERS?

CALVIN SAID THAT GOD DECREED THEIR DOOM BEFORE THE AGES... SO HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THEY ARE ALREADY SINNERS? YOU AND CALVIN HAVE FALLEN INTO CONTRADICTIONS.

[3) God chose X unto Salvation. (The decree to redeem).]

THAT IS ALREADY BIASED. IT MEANS THAT THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOUR GOD IS UNFAIR TO Y.

[4) BY NECESSITY, Y is Reprobated, that is, left in his state of sinfulness apart from any saving grace of God, ready to be finally dommed in hell. (The decree to doom by permission)]

THAT IS ILLOGICAL. HOW CAN THE INNOCENT, SINLESS AND UNBORN SOULS BE REPROBATED BY NECESSITY? IF GOD DOESN'T WANT THEM WHY DIDN'T HE JUST DECIDE NOT TO CREATE THEM AT ALL. BECAUSE CREATING SOMETHING OR SOMEONE ENTAILS MORAL AND SPIRITUAL RESPONSIBILITIES. IF YOUR PARENTS BIOLOGICALLY MADE YOU THEN THEY ARE NECESSITATED TO LOVE YOU, PROTECT YOU FEED YOU AND PROTECT YOU. SO, YOUR PARENTS MUST BE YOUR PROTECTOR AND NOT YOUR MURDERER, KILLER, ASASSIN, OR POISONER. THEY MUST BE YOUR FIRST AND LAST LINE OF DEFENSE.

BEING CREATOR GOD HAS THE SUPREME AUTHORITY AND RESPONSIBILITY TO GIVE LIFE AND PROTECT HIS CREATURES ESPECIALLY THE HUMAN PERSON. THAT IS WHY WHEN SIN ENTERED HIS FIRST DECLARATION IS THE PROTO-EVANGELION - THE FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT OF SALVATION.

INSTEAD, THE GOD OF CALVIN THINKS OF DAMNATION AND DOOMING FOR ALL AGES. THAT IS SATAN IN DISGUISE. THAT IS NOT THE GOD WHO INCARNATED TO REDEEM ALL MEN BY HIS BLOOD.

IN ORDER TO SAVE FACE YOU ARE USING THE WORD 'PERMISSION' FOR CALVIN. HA, HA, HA... WHERE DID CALVIN USED THAT WORD? WHERE? CITATION PLEASE.

CALVIN SAID THAT THEY ARE DOOMED BY IMMUTABLE DECREE OF GOD BEFORE THE AGES. THEN THAT IS WITHOUT PERMISSION. THE DECREE IS DEFINITELY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AND ACTIONS OF THE PERSON. HE HAS NOT COMMITTED SINS YET. HOW CAN YOU USE THE TERM OF ST. THOMAS WHICH REFERS TO A PERSON WHO HAVE BEEN PERMITTED TO CHOOSE EVIL ACTIONS AND ACTUALLY DID IT THEN TURNED INTO A SINNER?

[5) God's decree to doom (or reprobate) Y is MOST RIGHTEOUS since Y is a sinner in the first place.]

WRONG. THOSE SOULS WHOM THE GOD OF CALVIN DAMNED ARE NOT YET SINNERS. THEY WERE NOT YET BORN, THEY HAVE NOT SINNED YET BUT CALVIN'S GOD GAVE THEM TO SATAN ALREADY.

[6) God's decree to save (or elect) X is MOST GRACIOUS because X deserves nothing but doom due to his sins and transgressions.]

THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOUR GOD IS EVIL BECAUSE PRIOR TO BEING A SINNER, FROM ETERNITY THE SOULS WERE ALREADY DOOMED. THAT IS AN EVIL GOD. SATANIC. CALVIN IS HERETIC.

[Kuha niyo po?]

YEAH, KUHANG KUHA. THE GOD OF CALVIN IS TRULY SATANIC AND EVIL. UNJUST AND UNLOVING. VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE GOD OF STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS.

[Since kayo po ang nag-assume na "THE GOD OF CALVIN DOES NOT PERMIT FALLING AWAY", diba dapat ako ang maghanap sa inyo ng citation kung SAAN po ba sinabi ni Calvin yan?]

HA, HA, HA... BECAUSE CALVIN DIDN'T EXPLAIN HIS REPROBATION AS GOD 'PERMITTING' THE FALLING AWAY OF THE SINNER AS THOMAS AQUINAS DID IN SUMMA Ia, Q.23, Art. 3. ON THE CONTRARY, CALVIN SAID THAT GOD 'DOOMED' OTHERS BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES. CITATIONS HAVE BEEN GIVEN FOR THESE. WHERE IS YOUR CITATION FOR YOUR CLAIM?

February 15, 2010 10:17 PM