REFUTING ANTI-CATHOLIC APOLOGIST JOHN JOSEPH RAS ON PREDESTINATION OF ST. AUGUSTINE, ST. THOMAS AQUINAS AND JOHN CALVIN, Part 5

St. Augustine of Hippo, the greatest of the Latin Fathers of the Roman Church. Bishop and Apologist, Debater of the Faith... Monk and Abbot.

John Joseph Ras said...

ABE: [THAT'S FOR YOUR REJECTION OF GOOD WORKS FOR THOMAS AQUINAS. NOW, TELL ME IF THAT DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION IS IDENTICAL WITH CALVIN. HA, HA, HA...]

Ha? Saan ko sinabing ni-rejek ni Mang Tomas ang mabubuting gawa? Diba ganito ang sabi ko?

Unconditional - meaning, God's choice of people to Salvation is NOT based upon foreseen worthiness upon the chosen individual such as faith, good works, or perseverane. God did not chose them because they would be so, but in order that they might be so.

Hindi ko sinabing Thomas Aquinas rejected good works "period". Ang sabi ko, Thomas Aquinas (together with Augustine and Calvin) rejected THE IDEA THAT GOD'S ELECTION IS BASED UPON FORESEEN MERITS FROM THE CHOSEN INDIVIDUAL.

Magbasa naman po kayong mabuti.

February 15, 2010 8:12 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

JJR: [Better read Summa Theologica, Q-23, A-3 wherein Aquinas refuted the objections of those who oppose the concept of Sovereign Reprobation. Here's the link:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article3]

HERE IS THE EXPLANATION OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS ON HIS DOCTRINE OF REPROBATION:

"Thus as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of the providence TO PERMIT some TO FALL AWAY from that end; this is called REPROBATION." [ST. THOMAS AQUINAS, SUMMA THEOLOGIAE IA, Q.23, ART. 3 under "On the contrary"]

AND HERE IS WHAT CALVIN WROTE BASED ON THE CHAPTER THAT YOU GAVE ME:

"CHAPTER 24. ELECTION CONFIRMED BY THE CALLING OF GOD. THE REPROBATE BRING UPON THEMSELVES THE RIGHTEOUS DESTRUCTION TO WHICH THEY ARE DOOMED."

THAT GENERAL EXPLANATION OF CHAPTER 24 WHICH IS PART OF THE BOOK ITSELF IS SUPPORTED BY THIS STATEMENT WITHIN THE SAME CHAPTER:

"it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity; but it is at the same time stated why they were left to their stubbornness, when the Lord might have softened their hearts: namely, because HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE HAD ONCE FOR ALL DOOMED THEM TO DESTRUCTION." [CALVIN, Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24, no. 14]

* THE god OF CALVIN IS A god of DOOM! A DAMNATOR!!!

* THE SAVIOR AND CREATOR AND DIVINE PROVIDENCE OF ALL CANNOT WILL EVIL DIRECTLY IN ETERNY. IT DESTROYS HIS ESSENCE AS ETERNALLY GOOD.

* WE CANNOT ACCEPT CALVIN'S god WHO IS ALSO YOUR god. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME...

HERESY, HERESY, HERESY...

February 15, 2010 8:14 PM

John Joseph Ras said...

[“The Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world… Here, surely the fall of Adam is not presupposed as preceding God’s decree in time; but it is what God determined before all ages that is shown, when he willed to heal the misery of mankind” (Institutes 2:12:5).

“And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision” (Institutes 3:23:7; see also 3:24:12).]

Naniniwala po ako diyan, basahin niyo po sa Galacia 3:22. Pero saan po sinabi diyan ni Calvin na "God ELECTED some to damnation"?

_____________

[HA, HA, HA... YOU CANNOT DENY THAT THE TEACHING OF YOUR BELOVED THEOLOGIAN IS SATANIC. THE GOD OF CALVINISM IS NOT ONLY SAVIOR BUT ALSO DAMNATOR, MUCH BETTER TERMINATOR. HA, HA, HA...

DEMONIO ANG dios NYO. THAT IS NOT THE CHRISTIAN GOD. THAT IS NOT THE GOOD OF THE BIBLE WHO IS RICH IN MERCY. HA, HA, HA...]

Bakit niyo naman po nasabing Satanic? ALin dun ang Satanic?

Pano niyo po nasabing demonyo ang Diyos ni John Calvin? Pakipaliwanag po.

_________________

[HA, HA, HA... OF COURSE NABASA KO YAN... SEVERAL TIMES. I HAVE A PERSONAL COPY OF THAT BOOK, 5 VOLUMES IN ALL.]

Oh! Nabasa mo na pala eh! Eh pinaninwialaan mo ba?

__________________

THE PROBLEM WITH CALVIN IS THAT HE IS LIKE YOU. HE DIDN'T DEFINE CLEARLY WHAT HE MEANS BY REPROBATION. ST. THOMAS DEFINED IT IN SUMMA IA, Q.23, ART. 3 AS "Thus as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of the providence TO PERMIT some TO FALL AWAY from that end; this is called REPROBATION."]

Eh ganyan nga ang posisyon ni Calvin hinggil sa Reprobation eh? God decreed the Fall PERMISSIVELY. So malinaw na wala ka po pala talagang kaalam-alam sa tunay na pinaniniwalaan ni Calvin, puro lang po kayo tsismaks.

February 15, 2010 8:25 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

[Hindi ko sinabing Thomas Aquinas rejected good works "period". Ang sabi ko, Thomas Aquinas (together with Augustine and Calvin) rejected THE IDEA THAT GOD'S ELECTION IS BASED UPON FORESEEN MERITS FROM THE CHOSEN INDIVIDUAL.]

GOOD THAT YOU ARE NOT DENYING. YOU ONLY PROVED TO US THAT THE PREDESTINATION OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS IS COMPATIBLE WITH CATHOLIC THEOLOGY OF JUSTIFICATION AND INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE "SOLA FIDE" JUSTIFICATION OF THE REFORMERS SUCH AS CALVIN. THUS, ESSENTIALLY SPEAKING THEY WILL NOT FIT WITH EACH OTHER. HA, HA, HA...

YOU HAVE ENTERED INTO CONTRADICTION ALREADY. HA, HA, HA...

February 15, 2010 8:26 PM

John Joseph Ras said...

ABE: ["it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity; but it is at the same time stated why they were left to their stubbornness, when the Lord might have softened their hearts: namely, because HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE HAD ONCE FOR ALL DOOMED THEM TO DESTRUCTION." [CALVIN, Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24, no. 14]

* THE god OF CALVIN IS A god of DOOM! A DAMNATOR!!!]

_____________

Hindi niyo po ba nakita ang sabi diyan?

"...it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity..."

Ibig sabihin, makatarungan ang Diyos na sila'y hatulan sa kaparusahan. Eh ano ngayon kung hindi sila pinili? May obligasyon ba ang Diyos na piliin sila?

UNFAIR po ba ang Diyos kung pumili siya ng ilan, at iwanan naman sa pagkakasala at kaparusahan (doom) ang iba na hindi pinili?

ABE: [GOOD THAT YOU ARE NOT DENYING. YOU ONLY PROVED TO US THAT THE PREDESTINATION OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS IS COMPATIBLE WITH CATHOLIC THEOLOGY]

Ibig sabihin opisyal na turo sa RCC ang UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION nina San Agustin at Mang Tomas?

Isa pang tanong, naniniwala po ba kayo (gaya ng pinaniniwalaan nina San Agustin, Mang Tomas, at Calvin) na walang sinuman sa mga hinirang ang tuluyang mapapahamak?

[THE POSITION OF ST. AUGUSTINE AND ST. THOMAS AQUINAS ARE RESPECTFUL OF THE FREE WILL OF MAN. GOD SIMPLY GIVES 'PERMISSION' TO FALL AWAY ["TO PERMIT"] BUT THE GOD OF CALVIN DOES NOT PERMIT FALLING AWAY INSTEAD:]

Eh ganyan din ang paniniwala ni John Calvin eh?

Tungkol naman sa free will, ang "free will" na tinututulan ni John Calvin ay ang "free will" ayon sa depinisyon ng kanyang mga contemporary opponents.

February 15, 2010 8:42 PM

Fr. Abe, CRS said...

[“The Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world… Here, surely the fall of Adam is not presupposed as preceding God’s decree in time; but it is what God determined before all ages that is shown, when he willed to heal the misery of mankind” (Institutes 2:12:5).]

ST. PAUL REFERS HERE TO THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN CHOSEN FOR SALVATION, THAT IS WHY HE REFERRED TO HIMSELF AND THE BELIEVERS 'US'. AND THAT THE BELIEVERS INCLUDING ST. PAUL WAS CHOSEN "IN CHRIST".

THAT IS WHY STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS ATTRIBUTE DAMNATION TO THE FREE WILL OF MAN NOT TO THE ETERNAL DECREE OF GOD.

CALVIN ATTRIBUTED DAMNATION FIRST AND FOREMOST TO THE DIVINE DECREE... THE ETERNAL DECREE OF GOD.

THE POSITION OF CALVIN IS VIOLATING THE STATEMENT OF ST. PAUL. HE NEVER STATED THAT GOD DECREED THE FALL OF ADAM AS CALVIN TEACHES IN YOUR QUOTE ABOVE. HERE I PUT AGAIN:

"Here, surely the fall of Adam is NOT presupposed AS PRECEDING GOD'S DECREE in time; but it is what GOD DETERMINED BEFORE ALL AGES that is shown, when he willed to heal the misery of mankind” (Institutes 2:12:5)

HA, HA, HA... THIS IS TERRIBLE. THE PASSAGE SPEAKS OF REDEMPTION IN CHRIST NOT OF FALL OF ADAM AS DETERMINED BY GOD BEFORE ALL AGES:

Ephesians 1:3-7 (New International Version)

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For HE CHOSE us in him before the creation of the world TO BE HOLY AND BLAMELESS in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace"

THE FACT THAT ST. PAUL SPOKE OF ELECTION OF THE SAINTS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD IS NOT REASON FOR CALVIN TO TEACH THAT THERE IS DECREED DAMNATION OR DOOMED BY GOD IN ETERNITY FOR OTHERS.

OBVIOUSLY, CALVIN WENT BEYOND THE TEXT OF THE SCRIPTURE.

[“And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision” (Institutes 3:23:7; see also 3:24:12).

Naniniwala po ako diyan, basahin niyo po sa Galacia 3:22.]

THERE IS A SCRIPTURE PASSAGE SUPPORTING THAT GOD PREDESTINED THOSE HE HAS CHOSEN TO SALVATION AND HE DECREED IT IN ETERNITY AS QUOTED ABOVE. BUT THERE IS NO TEXT SUPPORTING THAT HE DECREED ADAM OR ANYONE ELSE TO DAMNATION OR DOOM FROM ETERNITY. THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM. HA, HA, HA...

BY THE WAY HERE IS YOUR REQUESTED VERSE:

Galatians 3:22 (New International Version)

22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

NOTHING IN THERE THAT SUPPORTS THE CLAIM OF CALVIN ABOVE.

IF DAMNATION IS FOUNDED ON THE ETERNAL DECREE OF GOD THEN GOD IS THE CAUSE OF SIN AND HAD WILLED EVIL FOR SOULS WHO ARE NOT PREDESTINED TO HEAVEN. THAT IS AN 'EVIL' god. ETERNALLY EVIL.

[Pero saan po sinabi diyan ni Calvin na "God ELECTED some to damnation"?]

WELL, THIS IS WHAT HE WROTE:

"because HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE HAD ONCE FOR ALL DOOMED THEM TO DESTRUCTION." [CALVIN, Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24, no. 14]

DOES IT GIVE YOU CONSOLATION THAT THE WORD ELECTION WAS NOT USED INSTEAD HE 'DOOMED' THEM BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE ONCE FOR ALL? HE, HE, HE...

[Bakit niyo naman po nasabing Satanic? ALin dun ang Satanic? Pano niyo po nasabing demonyo ang Diyos ni John Calvin? Pakipaliwanag po.]

BECAUSE HE DOOMED SOULS BY IMMUTABLE DECREE IN AN ETERNAL ACT "ONCE FOR ALL". ISN'T THAT SATANIC? WHAT KIND OF 'FATHER' IS THAT. GOD IS OUR FATHER, HE IS THE SOURCE OF LIFE. HE IS NOT THE DAMNATOR. THE GOD OF CALVIN IS DAMNATOR WHO DOOMS, CRUEL IN HIS GOD-DAMNING ACTS.

SATAN WANTS SOULS TO GO TO HELL. THE god OF CALVIN ETERNALLY WANTED TO DOOMED TO HELL THOSE SOULS THEN, SATAN AND The god of CALVIN ARE ON THE SAME SIDE. HA, HA,HA... DI BA? SATAN CAN SIMPLY INQUIRE TO Calvin's god: "MAY I KNOW HOW MANY SOULS YOU HAVE IMMUTABLY DECREED FOR ALL AGES TO BE DOOMED WITH ME IN HELL?" HA, HA, HA... GET'S MO?

ARE YOU PROUD OF THAT DOCTRINE? IS YOUR CONSCIENCE BE AT PEACE WITH THIS KIND OF DAMNATOR GOD? WITH THAT KIND OF DOGMA? WITH THAT KIND OF THEOLOGY? REPENT FROM YOUR HERESY. REPENT BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. DO NOT LET YOUR SOUL BE DAMNED FOR BELIEVING AND DEFENDING AND PREACHING THE SATANIC THEOLOGY OF JOHN CALVIN.

[Oh! Nabasa mo na pala eh! Eh pinaninwialaan mo ba?]

SI ST. THOMAS AQUINAS PINANINIWALAAN KO. AT KUNG ANO ANG NAKASULAT SA SUMMA. PERO IKAW AT SI CALVIN HINDI. KASI PAREHONG HERETICAL AT UNBIBIBLICAL ANG POSITION NYO.

TIGNAN MO ANG MGA SAGOT MO KAHIT ANG MGA QUOTES MO HINDI SUMUSUPORTA SA IYO.

*****[THE PROBLEM WITH CALVIN IS THAT HE IS LIKE YOU. HE DIDN'T DEFINE CLEARLY WHAT HE MEANS BY REPROBATION. ST. THOMAS DEFINED IT IN SUMMA IA, Q.23, ART. 3 AS "Thus as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of the providence TO PERMIT some TO FALL AWAY from that end; this is called REPROBATION."]*****

[Eh ganyan nga ang posisyon ni Calvin hinggil sa Reprobation eh?]

MALAYO. VERY FAR. ST. THOMAS NEVER WROTE THAT GOD DOOMED OTHERS BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES. NO, NO, NO... CITATION PLEASE.

[God decreed the Fall PERMISSIVELY.]

WHERE DID CALVIN WROTE THAT? CITATION PLEASE.

[So malinaw na wala ka po pala talagang kaalam-alam sa tunay na pinaniniwalaan ni Calvin, puro lang po kayo tsismaks.]

HA, HA, HA... HA, HA, HA... HA, HA, HA... YOU ARE A VERY GOOD DRAMATIC ACTOR YOU KNOW. HA, HA, HA...

February 15, 2010 9:20 PM