PREDESTINATION (“Prooridzo”): The providence of God disposing the supernatural means by which a man gets to heaven. [Tour of the Summa, #23]
Other terms for Predestination:
1 Peter 1:1-2 “Elect”
1 Peter 1:1-2 (King James Version) "1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
Matthew 22:14 “Called”/”Chosen”
Matthew 22:14 (KJV)"For many are called, but few are chosen."
1. As long as a free creature has not attained his goal, he may perversely turn and fail to attain it.
a. Man in this life is a wayfarer; he is on the road; his journey is not finished.
b. Man by his own fault, may reject direction, and fail to reach his true goal.
c. Man must cooperate in the saving will of God if he is come to heaven.
2. Since his goal is Supernatural, man cannot reach it by natural powers alone. He needs Supernatural aid (GRACE) to attain it.
a. Supernatural Grace has been offered to man but he may refuse it (Human Freedom & Free Will) by committing grave sin.
b. The act of refusing heaven and choosing hell through Mortal Sin (1 John 5:16-17) is called REPROBATION!
1 John 5:16-17 (KJV) "16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."
3. God loves, chooses, elects, and predestines all who will accept and use His grace and reach heaven. GOD IS THE CAUSE OF THE WHOLE EFFECT OF PREDESTINATION, for all grace comes from Him to dispose a man for salvation (heaven) and support his effort to attain it.
• Predestination is based on God’s Sovereign Choice alone! Not on man’s merit. [Sts. Augustine & Thomas Aquinas]
4. God wills that all may be saved but He also wills that human persons are Free to act as they will. [‘God does not will evil, nor does He compel virtue’ – St. John Chrysostom]
• There is nothing mechanical or fatalistic about predestination, nor does it conflict with the exercise of free will.
5. Only God knows the number and identity of those who will reach the heaven.
Romans 11:33-34 "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?"
6. Here on earth we cannot know whether we shall be among the elect heaven.
7. But we can know that we shall go to heaven if we chose to do so, and use the Grace of God to make our choice effective.
2 Peter 1:10 [NIV] "therefore, my brothers, be all more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL."
Acts 4:28 [RSV-CE] "All that happens is according to God’s predestination."
Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His son, that He might be firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." [Take note in order that Predestination, Divine Calling, Justification and Glorification to WORK TOGETHER the believer MUST LOVE GOD!]
1 Corinthians 2:7 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory."
TWO KINDS OF PREDESTINATION:
1. PREDESTINATION TO GRACE (Eph 1:4-5, 10-11): Predestined to come to God & become a TRUE CHRISTIAN. This is the entrance to the Christian life.
Ephesians 1:4-5 [KJV] "4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
Ephesians 1:10-11 [KJV] "10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"
2. PREDESTINATION TO GLORY (Rom 8;28-30): A true Christian can be predestined to stay with God & persevere till death. This is entrance to heaven (Salvation and Eternal life).
Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
• Are all predestined to grace? YES!
• Are all predestined to glory? NO!
• Are all Christians “Sure” of Eternal Life & Salvation? NO!
THE DOCTRINE ‘ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED’ IS NON BIBLICAL! The Bible clearly teaches that some true Christians or ‘Children of God’ or ‘Righteous Persons’ FALL AWAY & WILL BE LOST!
1. Some Angels fell from Grace
Lucifer & other angels fell from grace and were banished from Heaven (Is 14:12-15/Lk 10:18/ Rev 12:7-9)
Isaiah 14:12-15 (KJV)
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Luke 10:18 (KJV) "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."
Revelation 12:7-9 (KJV)
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
2. The Prophecy of Ezekiel categorically declare that the righteous can fall.
If the sinner turn to good he will be saved if a righteous man became evil he will not be saved. [Ezek 18:24-32/33:12-20]
Ezekiel 18:24-32 (KJV)
24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye
Ezekiel 33:12-20 (KJV)
12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
3. The First Parents lost their Innocence and were Sent Away from Paradise through Sin
Gen 3/ Rom 5:12/ 1 Cor 15:22 Adam and Eve lost the state of grace
2 Corinthians 11:2-3 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy; for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ, But, I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." [See, St. Paul himself is not deceiving the early Christians with OSAS. He tells them that he is afraid of their salvation because they can be deceived by the Devil and might fall away from God.]
4. Christians could ‘Severe’ & ‘Fall’ from Christ
Romans 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou CONTINUE in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF."
The Lord says that some believer s can fall due to temptation (Lk 8:13)
Luke 8:13 (KJV) "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."
The unfaithful steward was damned for failing to do his duties & responsibilities (Lk 12:42-46)
Luke 12:42-46 (KJV)
42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
[Salvation for the servant depends on his Fidelity and Wise Disposition of the Master's Gifts = Grace]
St. Paul wrote that like Eve, believers can fail (2 Cor 11:2-3)
2 Corinthians 11:2-3 (KJV)
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
[St. Pau is afraid lest the believers fall through temptation. He didn't deceived them with OSAS = Once Saved, Always Saved]
Jn 6:66-71 Many disciples abandoned Jesus
John 6:66-71 (KJV)
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Judas Iscariot became a traitor [Mt 26:14-16]
Matthew 26:14-16 (KJV)
14Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
16And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.
5. The Children of God (‘Father’) can turn away
Lk 15:11-32 The Parable of the Prodigal Son. The younger son abandoned his father; while the elder stayed but dead to sin as well. We as children of God can also fall away from Divine Grace & Salvation. The father loves the Prodigal Son so much but He waited for his return before he could be restored to His grace.
Romans 11;20-25 "By their lack of faith & by ungodliness the Jews were cut from God’s grace."
1 Timothy 6:10 "For love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." [Mt 6:24 God vs Mammon] [The heart of the believers can be corrupted by Money, Power and Prestige]
Hebrews 2:1 [NIV] "We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away."
Hebrews 3:12 "take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of un belief, in departing from living God." [See, even faith can disappear and be replaced by unbelief.]
6. The ‘Devil’ among the chosen
John 6:70-71 "Jesus answered, have not I chosen you twelve, & one of you is a devil?" [He was referring to Judas Iscariot, the traitor]
John 17:12 "Judas Iscariot chose to obey the temptation of Satan rather than the loving admonitions of the Lord Jesus."
1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, an doctrines of devils."
1 Timothy 1:19-20 "St. Paul reminds St. Timothy to hold on to faith & good consciences in order not to suffer like Hymenaeus & Alexander whom Paul Delivered Already to Satan."
7. The Parable of Vine & the Branches
John 15:1-10 "Jesus abides only on those who keep the Commandments. Every branch that does not bear fruit shall be taken away."
8. Even the Apostles could be disqualified from Salvation
1 Corinthians 9:23-27 "This I do for the Gospel’s sake, that I might be a partaker thereof with you…lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE CAST AWAY."
9. Our Faith could be in vain
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 "Brethren I declare unto you the gospel which I preach unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand. By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold FIRMLY to the word I prieached to you. Otherwise, you have BELIEVED IN VAIN."
10. Forgiveness of Sin is ‘Conditional’
Matthew 12:14-15 "if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses."
Matthew 18:32-35 "Then his Lord, after that he had called him, and said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his Lord was wroth and delivered to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him."
Romans 8:13 "If ye live after a flesh, ye shall he also reap, for he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the spirit shall of the spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF we faint not."
Colossians 1:21-23 "And you, that were sometimes alienated, and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in His sight. IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel."
Revelation 22:19 [NIV] And if anyone takes word away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him the share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this holy book.
11. The good believer who abandoned the faith is very hard to be turned back to God.
Hebrews 6:4-6 [NIV] "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and Subjecting him to public disgrace."
12. We must hold fast to The Profession of Faith.
Hebrews 10:23-29 [NIV] "Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess for he who promised is faithful. Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. IF we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of three or two witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserved to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sacrificed him, and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace?"
2 Peter 2;20-22 [NIV] "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they are at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed unto them. Of them the proverb are true: “A dog return to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud,”."
13. “Are you saved?” needs a threefold response, contrary to the claim of the Born Again that SALVATION IS A ONE-TIME EVENT… that it is something that had happened in the PAST ONLY AND IS IRREVERSIBLE is a mere product of their over presumption and self-deception:
(1) SALVATION IN THE PAST: “I have been saved.” Jesus died for me. Through faith and baptism I have received forgiveness. I am a new creation, sharing the very nature of God.
Ephesians 2:5 “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)”
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
(2) SALVATION IN THE PRESENT: “I am being saved.” I look at the Lord daily for Grace to continue believing, loving and doing God’s will;
1 Peter 1:8-9 (NIV) "8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls."
Philippians 2:12 [NIV] "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,"
(3) SALVATION IN THE FUTURE: “I hope to be saved.” I must persevere until the end of my life. I firmly hope in His grace to enable me to do so.
Romans 13:11 [NIV] “And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is NEARER now than when we first believed.”
1 Corinthians 3:15 [NIV] “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames.”
1 Corinthians 5:5 [NIV] “hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.”
Philippians 3:10-14 "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like Him in his death, and so, somehow to attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus."
Galatians 5:5 "For we through the spirit wait for the hope of righteous by faith."
14. Redemption also has a Past, Present and Future Dimension:
1. Redemption in the Past:
1 Corinthians 1:30 “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:”
Ephesians 1:7 “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;”
Colossians 1:13-14 “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:”
Hebrews 9:12 “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”
2. Redemption in the Present:
Romans 3:24 “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”
3. Redemption in the Future:
Luke 21:28 “And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”
Romans 8:23 “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”
Ephesians 1:14 “Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 4:30 “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
Hebrews 9:15 “And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”
15. Forgiveness of Sins also has a Past, Present and Future Dimension:
1. Forgiveness of Sin as having attained in the Past:
Ephesians 1:7 “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgivenss of sins, according to the riches of his grace”
Ephesians 4:32 “And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.”
Colossians 1:14 “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins”
Colossians 3:13 “Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.”
2. Forgiveness as On-going Process:
Matthew 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."
Acts 26:18 “To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
2 Timothy 1:18 "The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well."
Jamess 5:15 "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."
1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
16. Sanctification also has a Past, Present and Future Dimension:
1. Sanctification in the Past:
1 Corinthians 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
Hebrews 10:10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
2. Sanctification as On-Going Process:
1 Thessalonians 4:1-3 "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication"
1 Thessalonians 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Hebrews 2:11 "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren"
Hebrews 10:15 "Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before"
ALSO:
Romans 12:2 [ESV] "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."
2 Corinthians 4:16 "For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day."
Ephesians 4:21-23 "assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds"
17. Justification also has a Past, Present and Future Dimension:
1. Justification as a Past Event:
Romans 5:1-2 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God."
Romans 5:9 "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."
1 Corinthians 6:11 "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. "
2. Justification as On-Going Process:
Romans 2:13 "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified."
Romans 3:20 "For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."
Galatians 5:5 "For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness [In Greek: Dikaiosune = Justification or Righteousness] by faith."
THE JUSTIFICATION OF ABRAHAM:
Jimmy Akin, the Apologetic Director of Catholic Answers, wrote in his bestselling book The Salvation Controversy:
One of the classic Old Testament texts on justification is Genesis 15:6. This verse, which figures prominently in Paul’s discussion in Romans and Galatians, states that when God gave the promise to Abraham that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars of the sky (Gen 15:5, cf. Rom 4:18-22), Abraham “believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (Rom 4:3). This passage clearly teaches us that Abraham was justified as the time he believed the promise concerning the number of his descendants.
If justification is a once-and-for-all even rather than a process, that means that Abraham could not receive justification either before or after Genesis 15:6. However, Scripture indicates that he did both.
1. The Book of Hebrews tells us that “by faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance, and he went out, not knowing where he was to go” (Heb 11:8).
Every Protestant will passionately agree that the subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith. Indeed, Hebrews 11:1-2 tells us, “faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval” (Heb 11:1-2).
… Thus the faith we are told in verse 8 that Abraham had must be saving faith. But when did he have this faith?... The call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4 three chapters before he is justified in 15:6.
• So Abraham was justified in Genesis 12:1-4 and in Genesis 15:6.
• That cannot be a one time event.
2. Much more, St. James reported that the same Patriarch Abraham received another justification afterward:
James 2:21-23 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."
• We see, therefore that Abraham was Justified in Genesis 12:1-4 when he left Haran to transfer to the Promise Land.
• Once again Abraham was justified in Genesis 15:6 when he believed the promise concerning his descendants, and
• For the third time in Genesis 22 when he offered his promised son, Isaac, on the Altar.
THUS, JUSTIFICATION CANNOT BE A ONE TIME EVENT, BUT A PROCESS THAT CONTINUES THROUGHOUT THE BELIEVER’S LIFE.

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Tutol ka po sa konsepto ng Predestinasyon ni John Calvin, pero sinitas mo naman sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas. Hindi niyo po ba alam na nagkakaisa ang tatlong yan sa kanilang paniniwala na ang paghirang ng Diyos ay batay lamang sa mabuting pasya ng Diyos?
ReplyDeleteHa, ha, ha... Naku John Joseph. Guni-guni mo lang yan. Wag mong ibigay sa min ang iyong mga ilusyon. ha, ha, ha...
ReplyDeleteSI ST. AUGUSTINE AY OBISPONG CATOLICO.
SI ST. THOMAS AQUINAS AY PARING CATOLICO.
BOTH ARE VERY LOYAL TO THE CHURCH OF ROME. SI JOHN CALVIN AY HERETICO. MALAYO. MALAYONG MALAYO. GUMAWA KAYO NG SARILI NYONG MGA THEOLOGIANS AT WAG MANG-ANGKIN NG HINDI INYO. HA, HA, HA...
Hindi naman isyu dito kung obispong katoliko si San Agustin o hindi eh.
ReplyDeleteHindi rin isyu dito kung paring katoliko ba si Mang Tomas o hindi.
Ang punto ko po, bakit po kayo double standard? Kasi tinututulan niyo yung Calvinistic view ng Predestination, eh parehas lang din naman ng Thomistic at Augustinian view?
[Hindi naman isyu dito kung obispong katoliko si San Agustin o hindi eh.]
ReplyDeleteANONG HINDI. THE FACT THAT HE IS A CATHOLIC BISHOP AND A FAITHFUL ONE MEANS THAT HIS THEOLOGY IS FAITHFUL TO CATHOLIC TEACHING AND NOT TO A HERETIC LIKE JOHN CALVIN THAT HE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW.
[Hindi rin isyu dito kung paring katoliko ba si Mang Tomas o hindi.]
KASAMA YAN. SI ST. THOMAS TULAD NI ST. AUGUSTINE AY MGA FAITHFUL CATHOLICS. PARI AT OBISPO ANG MGA IYAN. AT TAPAT, MGA HUWARANG CATOLICO.
KAYA WAG KANG MAG-ILUSYON NA I-INTERPRET ANG MGA GAWA NILA AYON SA ARAL NI CALVIN KUNDI AYON SA CATHOLIC THEOLOGY. HE, HE, HE...
[Ang punto ko po, bakit po kayo double standard?]
ANONG DOUBLE STANDARD KO? BAKIT TOTOO NAMAN NA OBISPONG CATOLICO SI ST. AUGUSTINE. DI BA? O ANONG ANGAL MO. PARA KANG BATANG INAGAWAN NG KENDI DYAN. HA, HA, HA...
SI SANTO TOMAS DE AQUINO AY PARING CATOLICO RIN TULAD KO. SIEMPRE ANG THEOLOGY NILA AY CATHOLIC THEOLOGY. LALO NA AT MGA WORKS NILA ANG AMING MGA MANUAL AND GUIDES IN OUR STUDIES OF CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHIES AND THEOLOGY NEXT TO THE SACRED SCRIPTURES AND THE CATECHETICAL TEXTS. ANONG ANGAL MO DYAN.
AMIN NAMAN TALAGA SILA. WAG MONG SABIHIN SAKIN NA MAY KAPAL KA NG MUKA NA SABIHIN DITO NA SILA AY CALVINIST. MAHIYA KA NAMAN SA KIN!!!
[Kasi tinututulan niyo yung Calvinistic view ng Predestination, eh parehas lang din naman ng Thomistic at Augustinian view?]
BALIW KA PALA E.
SI JOHN CALVIN AY HERETICO PARA SA SIMBAHANG CATOLICO. SI SAN AGUSTIN AT SANTO TOMAS DE AQUINO AY MGA SANTO NAMIN.
KUNG MAGKATULAD ANG ARAL NILA E DI SANA KINONDINA NAMIN ANG MGA ARAL NG DAWALANG ITO. KASO HINDI. IBIG SABIHIN ANG ARAL NILA AY HINDI KATULAD NI JOHN CALVIN. HA, HA, HA...
MALAYO. DAHIL ANG DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION NG DALAWANG SANTO AY COMPATIBLE WITH CATHOLIC CREEDS.
ANG SABIHIN MO, NAGPIPILIT SI CALVIN NA GAYAHIN ANG MGA DOCTRINES NI AGUSTIN AT TOMAS AQUINO. GINAYA NYA ANG MGA TERMINOLOGIES NG DALAWA PERO PALPAK PA RIN. HALATANG HERETICAL ANG POSITION NYA.
KAYA NGA DAHIL SA PAGSUNOD KAY CALVIN NABUO NG MGA PROTESTANTE ANG "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS BE SAVED" SUBALIT ANG MGA CATOLICO DAHIL SI AGUSTIN AT TOMAS DE AQUINO ANG SINUNDAN HINDI NAKAGAWA NG HERETICAL NA DOCTRINA TULAD NG OSAS. HE, HE, HE...
Wala naman sanang personalan, usap lang po tayo.
ReplyDeleteSabi niyo po heretical ang view ni Calvin sa predestination. Ibig palang sabihin heretical din ang view nila San Augustin at Mang Tomas hinggil sa predestination?
Eh pare-parehas lang silang naniniwala sa Sovereign Election and Reprobation eh? So hindi lang po si Calvin ang tinututulan niyo kundi ang pati ang dalawang nabanggit na church fathers.
[Wala naman sanang personalan, usap lang po tayo.]
ReplyDeleteABA'Y SINONG HINDI MAGAGALIT NYAN. E KINAKAMKAM MO NA ANG MGA CATHOLIC SAINTS AND THEOLOGIANS NAMIN E. GINAGAWA MONG CALVINISTS. HA, HA, HA... MALAYO. ILUSYON MO LANG YAN. MALAYA KANG MANGARAP NG GISING SA BAGAY NA IYAN.
[Sabi niyo po heretical ang view ni Calvin sa predestination.]
OF COURSE.
[Ibig palang sabihin heretical din ang view nila San Augustin at Mang Tomas hinggil sa predestination?]
DEFINITELY NOT! HE, HE, HE... HINDI NAMAN SILA CALVINISTS E. THEY ARE CATHOLIC THEOLOGIANS. HA, HA, HA...
[Eh pare-parehas lang silang naniniwala sa Sovereign Election and Reprobation eh?]
HINDI. MAGKA-IBA ANG ARAL NILA DAHIL AY INTERPRETATION NI AGUSTINO AT TOMAS DE AQUINO AY KATULAD NG TURO NG IGLESIA CATOLICA. HINDI TULAD NG KAY CALVIN.
SI CALVIN AY SUMALUNGAT SA CHURCH OF ROME, SI AGUSTIN AT TOMAS DE AQUINO AY NANATILING TAPAT SA CHURCH OF ROME.
[So hindi lang po si Calvin ang tinututulan niyo kundi ang pati ang dalawang nabanggit na church fathers.]
TINUTUTULAN KO SI CALVIN. AKO AT ANG IGLESIA CATOLICA AY TUMUTUTOL KAY CALVIN.
PINAGPUPUGAYAN NG IGLESIA CATOLICA SI SAN AGUSTIN AT SANTO TOMAS DE AQUINO DAHIL SA KANILANG KABANALAN, KATALINUHAN AT PAGIGING TAPAT SA IGLESIA CATOLICA HANGGANG KAMATAYAN. SI CALVIN AY TRAIDOR SA IGLESIA TULAD NI JUDAS ISCARIOTE.
Isa lang po ang ibig sabihin niyan:
ReplyDeleteWala po kayong alam sa mga paninindigan ni Mang Tomas at San Agustin. Mabuti pa ako na isang hindi katoliko, alam ko. Mahilig kasi akong magbasa, hindi ako basta sugod lang ng sugod nang wala namang alam.
Minumungkahi ko pong basahin niyo ang "Summa Theologica" ni Mang Tomas. Click here.
Minumungkahi ko rin po ang treatise ni San Agustin na pinamagatang "On the Predestination of the Saints" at "On the Perseverance of the Saints". Click here.
Ikumpara niyo po sa posisyon ni Calvin sa kanyang Institutes of the Christian Religion. Click here.
Makikita niyo po na WALANG PINAGIBA ang konsepto ng Predestinasyon ng tatlong ito.
> Saint Augustine believed in Unconditional Election.
> Thomas Aquinas believed in Unconditional Election.
> John Calvin believed in Unconditional Election.
> Saint Augustine believed in Sovereign Reprobation.
> Thomas Aquinas believed in Sovereign Reprobation.
> John Calvin believed in Sovereign Reprobation.
> Saint Augustine believed in the Perseverance of the Saints.
> Thomas Aquinas believed in the Perseverance of the Saints.
> John Calvin believed in Perseverance of the Saints.
> Saint Augustine believed in Total Depravity.
> Thomas Aquinas believed in Total Depravity.
> John Calvin believed in the Total Depravity.
Kaya kapag sinabi niyo pong HERESY ang Calvinistic view of predestination, para niyo na rin pong sinabing heretiko sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas.
Hindi niyo po alam yan, kasi ignorante (wala po akong maisip na mas better na term) po kayo hinggil sa paniniwala nina Saint Augustine at Thomas Aquinas.
HA, HA, HA... THANK YOU.NAPAKA TALINO MO. BELIEVE AKO SA YO.
ReplyDeleteBUTI NA LANG AT MAY KOPYA AKO NG MGA GAWANG IYAN NI SAN AGUSTINO AT NI SANTO TOMAS.
KUNG TITIGNAN MO ANG AKING SINULAT SA TAAS AKING SINABI SA IYO NA: "ANG SABIHIN MO, NAGPIPILIT SI CALVIN NA GAYAHIN ANG MGA DOCTRINES NI AGUSTIN AT TOMAS AQUINO. GINAYA NYA ANG MGA TERMINOLOGIES NG DALAWA PERO PALPAK PA RIN. HALATANG HERETICAL ANG POSITION NYA."
HINDI SINA AGUSTIN AT TOMAS ANG SUMUNOD KAY CALVIN DAHIL NAUNA SILA NG DAAN-DAANG TAON SA HERETICO. AT DAHIL NAUNA SILA SIEMPRE GINAYA NI CALVIN ANG KANILANG MGA TERMINOLOGIES. SUBALIT MAGKA-IBA ANG INTERPRETATION NG DALAWA KESA KAY CALVIN. THE TWO REMAINE FAITHFUL TO THE CHURCH OF ROME.
HINDI PORKE PAREHO ANG MGA TERMS AY PAREHO NA NG DOCTRINA. LOOK AT JUSTIFICATION. PAREHONG GINAGAMIT YAN NG CATOLICO AT REFORMISTA PERO MAGKAIBA ANG INTERPRETATION. HE, HE, HE...
Una sa lahat, hindi ko naman sinabing sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas ang nanggaya eh. Siyempre ang ginaya ni John Calvin ay yung nakasulat sa Kasulatan, nagkataon nga lang na pati sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas ay gumaya sa Kasulatan, kaya pare-parehas sila ng posisyon hinggil sa Predestination (Election and Reprobation).
ReplyDeleteTungkol naman po sa sinabi mong:
[GINAYA NI CALVIN ANG KANILANG MGA TERMINOLOGIES. SUBALIT MAGKA-IBA ANG INTERPRETATION NG DALAWA KESA KAY CALVIN. THE TWO REMAINE FAITHFUL TO THE CHURCH OF ROME.
HINDI PORKE PAREHO ANG MGA TERMS AY PAREHO NA NG DOCTRINA.]
Pano niyo po nasabing magkaiba sila ng interpretasyon tungkol sa mga terminolohiya na ginamit? Wala po kayong basihan... maliwanag na nagpapalusot lamang po kayo dahil nabuking ko ang pagiging double-standard niyo sa pagkonsulta sa dalawang church fathers na ito.
Simulan natin sa "Sovereign Election", gusto niyo? Gawa tayo ng comparison sa definition of terms nila at sa mga argument at paliwanag nila, tapos tsaka niyo sabihin sa aking iba ang posisyon ni Calvin. Ano game?
[Una sa lahat, hindi ko naman sinabing sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas ang nanggaya eh.]
ReplyDeleteTALAGANG HINDI MO DAPAT SABIHIN YAN.
[Siyempre ang ginaya ni John Calvin ay yung nakasulat sa Kasulatan, nagkataon nga lang na pati sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas ay gumaya sa Kasulatan,kaya pare-parehas sila ng posisyon hinggil sa Predestination (Election and Reprobation).]
KAYA NGA SINASABI KO SA YO NA SA INTERPRETATION SILA NAGKA-IBA E. I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT THE TWO PRESENTED THEIR TEACHINGS IN CONFORMITY WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHILE THE OTHER IS NOT. THAT IS ALREADY AN ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE. DO YOU DENY THAT? HA, HA, HA...
O NO. THEIR POSITION ARE NOT THE SAME. CALVIN INVENTED HIS OWN POSITION ON THOSE TERMS WHILE AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE CATHOLIC ON THEIR STAND.
Tungkol naman po sa sinabi mong:
[GINAYA NI CALVIN ANG KANILANG MGA TERMINOLOGIES. SUBALIT MAGKA-IBA ANG INTERPRETATION NG DALAWA KESA KAY CALVIN. THE TWO REMAINE FAITHFUL TO THE CHURCH OF ROME.
HINDI PORKE PAREHO ANG MGA TERMS AY PAREHO NA NG DOCTRINA.]
[Pano niyo po nasabing magkaiba sila ng interpretasyon tungkol sa mga terminolohiya na ginamit? Wala po kayong basihan...]
BAKIT IKAW MAY BASEHAN KA NANG SINABI MO NA PARE-PAREHO ANG POSITION NILA? YOU JUST ENNUMERATED TO ME THOSE TERMS AND YOU ARE PATHETICALLY ASSUMING THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTED BASES FOR YOUR CLAIMS.
MY BASIS IS THE OFFICIAL STAND OF MY CHURCH WHICH CONDEMNED CALVIN FOR HERESY ON THOSE ISSUES WHILE ACCEPTED THE POSITIONS OF AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS.
[maliwanag na nagpapalusot lamang po kayo dahil nabuking ko ang pagiging double-standard niyo sa pagkonsulta sa dalawang church fathers na ito.]
FIRST AND FOREMOST, THOMAS IS NOT A CHURCH FATHER. HE LIVED MUCH LATER BEYOND THE PATRISTIC PERIOD SO DON'T PRETEND AS IF YOU ARE ALREADY SUPER INTELLIGENT BECAUSE YOU HAVE ENNUMERATED THEIR TERMS AND THE NAMES OF THEIR BOOKS. HE, HE, HE... THAT'S BASIC IGNORANCE OF FACTS YOU KNOW.
[Simulan natin sa "Sovereign Election", gusto niyo? Gawa tayo ng comparison sa definition of terms nila at sa mga argument at paliwanag nila, tapos tsaka niyo sabihin sa aking iba ang posisyon ni Calvin. Ano game?]
OK GAME!
_______
ReplyDeleteABE:
[O NO. THEIR POSITION ARE NOT THE SAME. CALVIN INVENTED HIS OWN POSITION ON THOSE TERMS WHILE AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE CATHOLIC ON THEIR STAND.]
JR:
Haka-haka niyo lang po yan. Sinasabi ko po sa inyo, hindi niyo po kayang patunayan yan. PRAMIS!
__________
ABE: [OK GAME!]
JR: O sige, simulan natin sa view ni Augustine hinggil sa Unconditional Election,
"Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected,— not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe. For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16). For if they had been elected because they had believed, they themselves would certainly have first chosen Him by believing in Him, so that they should deserve to be elected. But He takes away this supposition altogether when He says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." And yet they themselves, beyond a doubt, chose Him when they believed on Him. Whence it is not for any other reason that He says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," than because they did not choose Him that He should choose them, but He chose them that they might choose Him; because His mercy preceded them according to grace, not according to debt.
Therefore He chose them out of the world while He was wearing flesh, but as those who were already chosen in Himself before the foundation of the world. This is the changeless truth concerning predestination and grace. For what is it that the apostle says, "As He has chosen us in Himself before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4)? And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you;" when God should rather have foreknown this very thing, that they themselves would have chosen Him, so that they might deserve to be chosen by Him.
Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with that predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do; but they were elected out of the world with that calling whereby God fulfilled that which He predestinated. For whom He predestinated, them He also called, with that calling, to wit, which is according to the purpose. Not others, therefore, but those whom He predestinated, them He also called; nor others, but those whom He so called, them He also justified; nor others, but those whom He predestinated, called, and justified, them He also glorified; assuredly to that end which has no end.
Therefore God elected believers; but He chose them that they might be so, not because they were already so. The Apostle James says: "Has not God chosen the poor in this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which God has promised to them that love Him?" (James 2:5).
By choosing them, therefore; He makes them rich in faith, as He makes them heirs of the kingdom; because He is rightly said to choose that in them, in order to make which in them He chose them. I ask, who can hear the Lord saying, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," and can dare to say that men believe in order to be elected, when they are rather elected to believe; lest against the judgment of truth they be found to have first chosen Christ to whom Christ says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 16:16) [Saint Augustine on Sovereign Predestination, Book I Chapter 34]
See? Augustine believed that God's election is:
1) eternal
2) immutable
3) unconditional
Hindi lang basta sa terminology, kundi pati sa explanation at arguments.
...Palusot?
ABE:
ReplyDelete[KAYA NGA SINASABI KO SA YO NA SA INTERPRETATION SILA NAGKA-IBA E. I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT THE TWO PRESENTED THEIR TEACHINGS IN CONFORMITY WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHILE THE OTHER IS NOT. THAT IS ALREADY AN ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE. DO YOU DENY THAT? HA, HA, HA...]
JR:
Dinedenay ko po!
Bakit? Kasi pano niyo po nasabing ang interpretasyon nina San Agustin at Mang Tomas hinggil sa predestinasyon ay AYON sa posisyon ng simbahang katolika, eh wala ngang OPISYAL na katuruan ang iglesia katolika hinggil sa predestinasyon?
Hindi niyo po ba alam yan? Hanggang ngayon ay nagbabangayan parin sa loob ng simbahan niyo ang mga Molinista (catholic counterpart ng Arminianism) at mga Tomista/Augustinian (catholic counterpart ng Calvinism)
Mukhang marami po kayong matututunan sakin ah.
_______
ABE:
[O NO. THEIR POSITION ARE NOT THE SAME. CALVIN INVENTED HIS OWN POSITION ON THOSE TERMS WHILE AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE CATHOLIC ON THEIR STAND.]
JR:
Haka-haka niyo lang po yan. Sinasabi ko po sa inyo, hindi niyo po kayang patunayan yan. PRAMIS!
__________
HA, HA, HA... SO WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH THAT? WE ARE NOT TEACHING THAT GOD'S ELECITION IS NON ETERNAL, MUTABLE AND CONDITIONAL.
ReplyDeleteOF COURSE, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES THAT GOD IS ETERNAL AND IMMUTABLE. THESE ARE ESSENTIAL CHARACTERISTICS OF GOD.
SO, DID AUGUSTINE BECOME CALVINIST BECAUSE OF THAT. HA, HA, HA... DREAM ON!!!
ABE:
ReplyDelete[WE ARE NOT TEACHING THAT GOD'S ELECITION IS NON ETERNAL, MUTABLE AND CONDITIONAL. ]
JR:
Oh, eh ano po pala ang nire-refute mo sa Calvinistic view of Predestination kung sang-ayon naman po pala kayo kay Augustine, Thomas, at Calvin?
Fr.thank you again for this presentation. It keeps my catholic faith stronger. God bless you.
ReplyDelete[Fr.thank you again for this presentation. It keeps my catholic faith stronger. God bless you.]
ReplyDeletePRAISE THE LORD FOR HIS GREAT LOVE IS WITHOUT END.
As you can see I am in discussion with a Calvinist on this topic. I am preparing my resources to refute the claim that the Doctrine of Predestination of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas are Calvinist. Ha, ha, ha... gusto pang idamay sa heresia nila ang mga santo natin.
father, question lang po. masama po bang magjakol? ang hirap po kasing pigilan at saan po ito mababasa sa bible. salamat
ReplyDeleteFr., hindi ganun kalalim ang alam ko sa usapin na inyong pinag uusapan ng isang ito. Pero lalo lamang nagiging matatag ang paniniwala ko sa Faith natin gawa ng pamamaraan, aral at mga ebidensyang iyong ipinapakita. Totoong ipinagkaloob sa ating pananampalataya ang salvific truth. Para sa isang ordinaryong katoliko tulad ko, sapat na na makita sa iang paring katulad mo ang kakayahang ipagtanggol, ipaliwanag at ipahayag ang mga katotohanang ito tungkol sa ating pananampalataya. Tama na ang mga panahong tikom ang bibig ng mga katoliko dahil sa kamangmangan sa mga turo ng ating Iglesia. Sadyang nakakatakot ang naidudulot ng kaunting kaalaman sa mga taong Mapagmalaki.
ReplyDeleteIngat lagi fr. Pagpalain ka ng Dyos at patnubayan ni st. Jerome Emiliani.
Ay, hindi nanaman inaprove yung comment ko...
ReplyDeleteBAkit kaya?
PART 1
ReplyDeleteABE:
[KAYA NGA SINASABI KO SA YO NA SA INTERPRETATION SILA NAGKA-IBA E. I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT THE TWO PRESENTED THEIR TEACHINGS IN CONFORMITY WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHILE THE OTHER IS NOT. THAT IS ALREADY AN ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE. DO YOU DENY THAT? HA, HA, HA...]
[JR:
Dinedenay ko po!]
THAT IS YOUR MISTAKE.
1. "Let him, therefore, say that the Church at any time has not had in its belief the truth of this predestination and grace, which is now maintained with a more careful heed against the late heretics; let him say this who dares to say that at any time it has not prayed, or not truthfully prayed, as well that unbelievers might believe, as that believers might persevere. And if the Church has always prayed for these benefits, it has always believed them to be certainly God's gifts; nor was it ever right for it to deny that they were foreknown by Him. And thus Christ's Church has never failed to hold the faith of this predestination, which is now being defended with new solicitude against these MODERN HERETICS." [ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, On Predestination of the Saints, Book II, Chapter 65 The Church's Prayers Imply the Church's Faith.]
ST. AUGUSTINE ACKNOWLEDGES THE AUTHORITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO CONDEMN THE HERETICS. CALVIN WAS NOT YET EXISTING DURING HIS TIME. BUT CALVIN IS DECLARED BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH - THE CHURCH WHEREIN AUGUSTINE WAS A FAITHFUL BISHOP - AS HERETIC.
LOOK AT THE TITLE OF CHAP 65: "The Church's Prayers Imply the Church's Faith." HA, HA, HA... THAT IS NOT CALVIN FAITH, THAT IS NOT LUTHERAN FAITH THAT IS CATHOLIC FAITH. DREAM ON.
2. "But let those who think that I am in error, consider again and again carefully what is here said, lest perchance they themselves may be mistaken. And when, by means of those who read my writings, I become not only wiser, but even more perfect, I acknowledge God's favour to me; and this I especially look for at the hands of the teachers of the Church, if what I write comes into their hands, and they condescend to acknowledge it." [ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, On Predestination of the Saints, Book II, Chapter 68]
ST. AUGUSTINE CONCLUDED HIS TWO VOLUME WORKS ON PREDESTINATION ACKNOWLEDGING THE AUTHORITY OF HIS CHURCH. WHILE CALVIN BECAME A TRAITOR AND REBEL TO THE CHURCH SERVED WITH SO MUCH LOVE BY ST. AUGUSTINE.
ST. AUGUSTINE'S THEOLOGY IS DIFFERS FROM THAT OF CALVIN AS THE FAITHFUL DIFFERS WITH THE TRAITOR.
3."For of this matter, which I am now compelled not only to mention, but even to protect and defend against these new heretics, the Church has never been silent in its prayers, although in its discourses it has not thought that it need be put forth, as there was no adversary compelling it. For when was not prayer made in the Church for unbelievers and its opponents that they should believe? When has any believer had a friend, a neighbour, a wife, who did not believe, and has not asked on their behalf from the Lord for a mind obedient to the Christian faith?" [ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, On Predestination of the Saints, Book II, Chapter 63 The Testimony of the Whole Church in Her Prayers.]
THE TITLE ITSELF ATTEST THAT ST. AUGUSTINE ACKNOWLEDGE THE TESTIMONY OF THE CHURCH... HIS CHURCH - THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND HE BELIEVES THAT NON BELIEVERS ARE BEING DRAWN TO THE TRUE FAITH BY GOD'S GRACE THROUGH THE PRAYER OF THE CHURCH.
PART 2
ReplyDelete4. "And since these things are so, the judgment of the book of Wisdom ought not to be repudiated, since for so long a course of years that book has deserved to be read in the Church of Christ from the station of the readers of the Church of Christ, and to be heard by all Christians, from bishops downwards, even to the lowest lay believers, penitents, and catechumens, with the veneration paid to divine authority." [ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, On Predestination of the Saints, Book I, Chapter 27.— The Book of Wisdom Obtains in the Church the Authority of Canonical Scripture]
RIGHT IN THE FIRST BOOK OF HIS 'PREDESTINATION OF SAINTS' AUGUSTINE DEFENDED THE STAND OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO CONSIDER AS CANONICAL THE BOOK OF WISDOM WHICH CALVIN AND THE REFORMERS REJECTED.
5. "For God is not compelled by fate to come to the help of these infants, and not to come to the help of those—since the case is alike to both. Or shall we think that human affairs in the case of infants are not managed by Divine Providence, but by fortuitous chances, when rational souls are either to be condemned or delivered, although, indeed, not a sparrow falls to the ground without the will of our Father which is in heaven? Matthew 10:29 Or must we so attribute it to the negligence of parents that infants die without baptism, as that heavenly judgments have nothing to do with it; as if they themselves who in this way die badly had of their own will chosen the negligent parents for themselves of whom they were born? What shall I say when an infant expires some time before he can possibly be advantaged by the ministry of baptism? For often when the parents are eager and the ministers prepared for giving baptism to the infants, it still is not given, because God does not choose; since He has not kept it in this life for a little while in order that baptism might be given it. What, moreover, when sometimes aid could be afforded by baptism to the children of unbelievers, that they should not go into perdition, and could not be afforded to the children of believers? In which case it is certainly shown that there is no acceptance of persons with God; otherwise He would rather deliver the children of His worshippers than the children of His enemies." [ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, On Predestination of the Saints, Book II, Chapter 31.— Infants are Not Judged According to that Which They are Foreknown as Likely to Do If They Should Live.]
THE PREDESTINATION OF ST. AUGUSTINE FAVORS INFANT BAPTISM WHICH THE REFORMERS REJECTED.
[Bakit? Kasi pano niyo po nasabing ang interpretasyon nina San Agustin at Mang Tomas hinggil sa predestinasyon ay AYON sa posisyon ng simbahang katolika, eh wala ngang OPISYAL na katuruan ang iglesia katolika hinggil sa predestinasyon?]
ReplyDeleteTHERE IS A OFFICIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON PREDESTINATION. YOU WILL GET THEM ON DIFFERENT OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS INSTEAD ON BEING CONCENTRATED IN ONE. SO THAT WE CAN OFFICIALLY SAY THAT WE DISAGREE WITH CALVIN ON PREDESTINATION AND THAT EVEN THOUGH THERE IS SOME SIMILARITIES BETWEEN ST. AUGUSTINE-ST. THOMAS WITH THAT OF CALVIN, THERE IS ALSO ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCES ENOUGH TO OFFICIALLY REJECT THAT OF CALVIN AS HERESY.
FOR INSTANCE YOU CAN CHECK IT ON THE CANONS AND DECREES OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT AND IN THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
[Hindi niyo po ba alam yan?]
I KNOW THAT YOU ARE PRETENDING TO BE KNOWLEDGEABLE OF OUR CATHOLIC FAITH. NICE TRY.
[Hanggang ngayon ay nagbabangayan parin sa loob ng simbahan niyo ang mga Molinista (catholic counterpart ng Arminianism) at mga Tomista/Augustinian (catholic counterpart ng Calvinism)]
WE ARE AT PEACE AMONG OURSELVES. UNLIKE THE SO-CALLED REFORMISTS WHO ARE SPLITTING AND SPLITTING INTO DENOMINATIONS WITHOUT DOCTRINAL AND ECCLESIAL COMMUNION WITH ONE ANOTHER.
THE MOLINISTS AND THE THOMISTS ARE DEBATING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF PREDESTINATION BUT TO CLAIM THEM AS ARMINISTS OR CALVINISTS COUNTERPART OF CATHOLICISM IS PREPOSTEROUS AND MERE HOT AIR. THAT IS JUST A PRODUCT OF YOUR OWN HALLUCINATION BECAUSE THE THOMISTS AND THE MOLINISTS WILL SURELY DENY THAT THEY ARE SUCH. IN FACT, THE PROPONENTS OF THESE SCHOOL OF THOUGHTS JOINED TOGETHER IN THE COUNCIL OF TRENT TO DENOUNCE THE HERESY OF LUTHER AND CALVIN.
[Mukhang marami po kayong matututunan sakin ah.]
YES, I AM DISCOVERING YOUR IGNORANCE OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY.
_______
ABE:
[O NO. THEIR POSITION ARE NOT THE SAME. CALVIN INVENTED HIS OWN POSITION ON THOSE TERMS WHILE AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE CATHOLIC ON THEIR STAND.]
JR:
Haka-haka niyo lang po yan.
HA, HA, HA... CALVIN IS DENOUNCED BY MY CHURCH AS HERETIC. HA, HA, HA... AND IT IS DONE IN AN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL. HA, HA, HA...
IKAW, WHAT CHURCH DO YOU BELONG? WHAT IS THE NAME OF YOUR CHURCH? I WANT TO READ ITS DOCUMENTS AND OFFICIAL TEACHINGS SO THAT I CAN CHECK IF YOUR STATEMENTS CORRESPOND TO THE OFFICIAL TEACHING OF YOUR CHURCH.
[Sinasabi ko po sa inyo, hindi niyo po kayang patunayan yan. PRAMIS]
I CAN PROVE THAT TO YOU AND SO CONTINUE YOUR PRESENTATIONS OF PROOFS THAT AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE CALVINISTS. THAT YOU CANNOT PROVE. PROMISE.
[Oh, eh ano po pala ang nire-refute mo sa Calvinistic view of Predestination kung sang-ayon naman po pala kayo kay Augustine, Thomas, at Calvin?]
ReplyDeleteI AM NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH THE HERETIC CALVIN. I OPPOSE YOUR CLAIM THAT STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS ARE CALVINIST.
YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN ME YET THAT STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS ARE CALVINISTS. HE, HE, HE...
[Ay, hindi nanaman inaprove yung comment ko...
ReplyDeleteBAkit kaya?]
MAGHINTAY. BUSY LANG AKO SA MGA ANG DATING DAAN. HE, HE, HE...
Kung di out of context, out of topic naman yung ma quotes niyo kay San Agustin. Alalahanin niyo po, yung Calvinistic view of Predestination [election & reprobation] po ang pinaguusapan natin, hindi infant baptism, hindi rin ang book of Wisdom. Stay on topic lang po tayo.
ReplyDeleteHintayin niyo po ang tugon ko na sa blog ko lang ipapaskil (para tiyak na maipa-publish).
HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ST. AUGUSTINE AND THE HERETIC CALVIN:
ReplyDelete1. Calvin believed, in opposition to St. Augustine, that God had predestined the Fall of Adam, and thus, before sin had ever entered the world, had predestined the elect to eternal life and the rest to eternal damnation. Calvin spells this out very clearly in his Institutes of the Christian Religion.
Calvin writes:
“The Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world… Here, surely the fall of Adam is not presupposed as preceding God’s decree in time; but it is what God determined before all ages that is shown, when he willed to heal the misery of mankind” [Institutes 2:12:5].
Elsewhere Calvin writes:
“And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision” [Institutes 3:23:7; see also 3:24:12].
FOR AUGUSTINE PREDESTINATION REFERS ONLY TO THE DECISION TO REDEEM AND NOT TO THE ACT OF ABANDONING THE FALLEN HUMANITY TO DAMNATION:
The renown Protestant theologian Alister McGrath explains:
“Predestination, for Augustine, refers only to the divine decision to redeem, no to the act of abandoning the remainder of fallen humanity. For Calvin, logical rigour demands that God actively chooses to redeem or to damn. God cannot be thought of as doing something by default: he is active and sovereign in his actions. Therefore God actively wills the salvation of those who will be saved and the damnation of those who will not... Salvation thus lies outside the control of the individual, who is powerless to alter the situation” [Reformation Thought, 2nd edition, 1993, p. 125, 127].
Francis Wendell concurs with McGrath: “…on this particular point Calvin diverges from St. Augustine, for whom the elect alone are the object of a special decision which withdraws them from the ‘massa perditionis’ while the preprobate are simply abandoned by God to the ruin they have incurred by their sins [De correptione et gratia, 7, 12, M.L. xliv, 923].
[Kung di out of context, out of topic naman yung ma quotes niyo kay San Agustin. Alalahanin niyo po, yung Calvinistic view of Predestination [election & reprobation] po ang pinaguusapan natin, hindi infant baptism, hindi rin ang book of Wisdom. Stay on topic lang po tayo.]
ReplyDeleteHA, HA, HA... ABA E MALALA KA NA PALA E. I GOT THOSE QUOTES FROM THE BOOK OF ST. AUGUSTINE ON PREDESTINATION OF SAINTS WHICH YOU YOURSELF HAD GIVEN HERE. AND I WAS DELIGHTED THAT YOU GOT IT FROM THE ROMAN CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA COLLECTIONS. HA, HA, HA...
THOSE TOPICS ARE PART OF THE PREDESTINATION EXPLANATIONS OF ST. AUGUSTINE.
WHY? ARE YOU IGNORANT THAT THE PREDESTINATION BOOK OF ST. AUGUSTINE IS ALSO WHERE HE EXPOSED HIS DEFENSE OF INFANT BAPTISM AGAINST THE PELAGIANS? AKALA KO BA MATALINO KA SA AUGUSTINIAN THEOLOGICAL OPUS THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTED? HA, HA, HA...
YOU HAVE NOT IMAGINED THAT AUGUSTINE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PRAYER AND THE TESTIMONY OF THE CHURCH IN THAT BOOK. HA, HA, HA... THE PREDESTINATION THEOLOGY OF AUGUSTINE HAS AN ECCLESIOLOGICAL DIMENSION WHICH IS ABSENT IN CALVIN BECAUSE CALVIN REJECTED THE CHURCH AND REPLACED IT WITH SOLA SCRIPTURA, AN UNBIBLICAL DOCTRINE. HA, HA, HA...
[Hintayin niyo po ang tugon ko na sa blog ko lang ipapaskil (para tiyak na maipa-publish).]
ANG KAPAL NG MUKA MONG I-IMPLY NA HINDI AKO NAGPA-PUBLISH NG MGA COMMENTS MO. HA, HA, HA... LAHAT NG COMMENTS MO AY PUBLISHED DITO. SOME CAME LATE BECAUSE I WAS DEBATING THE ADD PEOPLE EARLIER. BUT THEY ARE NOW PUBLISHED. HA, HA, HA...
ABE:
ReplyDelete[I AM NOT IN AGREEMENT WITH THE HERETIC CALVIN. I OPPOSE YOUR CLAIM THAT STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS ARE CALVINIST.
YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN ME YET THAT STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS ARE CALVINISTS. HE, HE, HE...]
JR:
Teka, sa lahat kailan ko po ba sinabing Calvinist sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas?
Ang sinasabi ko po, ang view nilang tatlo ay almost identical with regards to PREDESTINATION.
Augustine, Aquinas, and Calvin altogether affirmed the Sovereignty of God in Salvation. They believed that God's election is:
1. Eternal - meaning, it has been decreed from eternity past.
2. Unconditional - meaning, God's choice of people to Salvation is NOT based upon foreseen worthiness upon the chosen individual such as faith, good works, or perseverane. God did not chose them because they would be so, but in order that they might be so.
3. Immutable - meaning, God's decree of election will be infallibly fulfilled according to His sovereignty and unfailing wisdom, that in the end, all who are unconditionally chosen to eternal life will be saved to the fullest.
Ganyan po ba ang position niyo sa Predestination? Hindi naman eh. Pero si Calvin, Oo.
Hindi niyo po ba napagaralan yan sa seminary niyo? Hindi niyo po ba alam na up to now ay nagbabangayan parin ang mga Dominican (i.e. Thomist) at mga Jesuit (i.e. Molinist) sa loob ng bakod niyo?
Mabuti pa ako alam ko.
ABE:
ReplyDelete[THERE IS A OFFICIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON PREDESTINATION. YOU WILL GET THEM ON DIFFERENT OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS INSTEAD ON BEING CONCENTRATED IN ONE.]
JR:
Pakilagay nga po dito ang OPISYAL na detalyadong posisyon ng RCC hinggil sa Predestinasyon galing sa katesismo niyo?
PART I
ReplyDelete[JR:
Teka, sa lahat kailan ko po ba sinabing Calvinist sina San Agustin at Mang Tomas?
Ang sinasabi ko po, ang view nilang tatlo ay almost identical with regards to PREDESTINATION.]
HA, HA, HA... ANG IBIG MONG SABIHIN AY 'IDENTICAL' LANG ANG MGA ARAL NILA SA PREDESTINATION? HA, HA, HA... ANO ANG IBIG SABIHIN MO NG IDENTICAL? PAREHO ANG TERMS O PAREHO ANG THEOLOHIYA?
[Augustine, Aquinas, and Calvin altogether affirmed the Sovereignty of God in Salvation.]
AUGUSTINE AND AQUINAS ARE TEACHING IN FIDELITY TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT GOD IS SOVEREIGN IN SALVATION. THAT IS NOT AUGUSTINIAN OR THOMIST BUT CATHOLIC.
[They believed that God's election is:
1. Eternal - meaning, it has been decreed from eternity past.]
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WITH OUR TWO GREAT THEOLOGIANS AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE TEACHING THAT GOD'S ELECTION IS ETERNAL BECAUSE GOD IS ETERNAL. BUT, SINCE MAN IS NOT ETERNAL AND THE WORLD IS FINATE, SALVATION OCCURS IN THE FINITE CONDITION OF MAN.
PART 2
ReplyDelete2. Unconditional - meaning, God's choice of people to Salvation is NOT based upon foreseen worthiness upon the chosen individual such as faith, good works, or perseverane. God did not chose them because they would be so, but in order that they might be so.]
OOPS, THAT MUST BE QUALIFIED. WE AGREE WITH THE TERM BUT AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE NOT REJECCTING GOOD WORKS.
IN FACT, THE BOOK II OF ST. AUGUSTINE'S ON PREDESTINATION OF SAINTS IS ENTITLED THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE. PART OF THE GRACE BEING GIVEN MY GOD TO THE ELECT IS THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE, THAT IS, THE CAPACITY TO DO GOOD WORKS.
ST. THOMAS AQUINAS CONCURS:
In Summa Theologia Ia, Q.23, Article 3 On Predestination he explains that "As long as a free creature has not attained his goal, he may perversely turn aside and fail to attain it."
THIS IS ST. THOMAS AQUINAS' DOCTRINE OF REPROBATION: "Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of that providence to PERMIT some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation... Therefore, as predestination includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin." [Summa Theologia, vol. 1, Christian Classics ed. p. 127]
THUS, YOUR REJECTION OF GOOD WORKS ON THE PART OF THE BELIEVERS DOESN'T FIT IN THE THEOLOGY OF ST. AUGUSTINE AND OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS.
Much more:
Summa Theologiae Ia, Q. 23, Art. 8 [Christian Classics edition, p. 133]:
"Wherefore we must say otherwise that in predestination two things are to be considered - namaly, THE DIVINE PREORDINATION; and its EFFECTS. As regards the former, in no possible way can predestination be furthered by the prayers of the saints. For it is notdue to their prayers that anyone is predestined by God. AS REGARDS THE LATTER, predestination is sad to be HELPED BY THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, and by other GOOD WORKS... whether it be one's own prayers, or those of another, or other GOOD WORKS, and such like, WITHOUT WHICH ONE WOULD NOT ATTAIN TO SALVATION."
THAT'S FOR YOUR REJECTION OF GOOD WORKS FOR THOMAS AQUINAS. NOW, TELL ME IF THAT DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION IS IDENTICAL WITH CALVIN. HA, HA, HA...
3. Immutable - meaning, God's decree of election will be infallibly fulfilled according to His sovereignty and unfailing wisdom, that in the end, all who are unconditionally chosen to eternal life will be saved to the fullest.
UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU CALVIN DIDN'T TEACH ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE DECREED OR ELECTED TO SALVATION HE ALSO TAUGHT THAT GOD ELECTED OTHERS TO DAMNATION. HA, HA, HA... THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE THEOLOGY OF STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS.
[Ganyan po ba ang position niyo sa Predestination? Hindi naman eh. Pero si Calvin, Oo.]
MAY ILANG PAGKAKATULAD SUBALIT MAY ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCES. ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCES.
[Hindi niyo po ba napagaralan yan sa seminary niyo?]
KULANG KULANG ANG PINAG-ARALAN MO. MABABAW. YOU ARE CHEAPENING THE POSITION OF CALVIN AND YOU ARE DISTORTING THE THEOLOGY OF AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS.
BETTER FOR YOU TO STUDY AGAIN. HA, HA, HA...
[Hindi niyo po ba alam na up to now ay nagbabangayan parin ang mga Dominican (i.e. Thomist) at mga Jesuit (i.e. Molinist) sa loob ng bakod niyo?]
THE DOMINICANS OF UST AND THE JESUITS OF ATENEO ARE VERY MUCH AT PEACE. WE WERE TOGETHER ON SO MANY OCCASIONS YET THAT DEBATE IS NOT AS YOU WANT TO MAKE IT APPEAR.
THE DOMINICANS ARE ANTI-REFORMATION AS WELL AS THE JESUITS. HA, HA, HA... DREAM ON.
GIVE ME ONE OCCASION WHEN THE THEOLOGIANS OF TWO SCHOOLS DEBATED OR FOUGHT AGAINST EACH OTHER BECAUSE OF THOSE ISSUES.
[Mabuti pa ako alam ko.]
NOW I KNOW THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING. HA, HA, HA...
[Pakilagay nga po dito ang OPISYAL na detalyadong posisyon ng RCC hinggil sa Predestinasyon galing sa katesismo niyo?]
ReplyDeleteABA, THAT IS TOO MUCH. HE, HE, HE... THE OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ARE VOLUMINOUS. WE HAVE SEVERAL ECUMENICAL COUNCILS, PAPAL DECREES, SYNOD DOCUMENTS AND CATECHETICAL MANUALS.
WHY DON'T YOU PRESENT CALVIN'S THEOLOGY OF PREDESTINATION HERE AND THEN LET ME CRITIQUE IT USING THE OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?
The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church states:
ReplyDeleteAccording to him [Calvin], before the Fall and even before creation, God, in his eternal counsels, predestined some of His creatures to salvation and others to damnation. This entails that God wills not only the reprobation of the damned but also the sin which leads to it, as he who wills the end must will the means. This doctrine was later, however, rejected by the more moderate Calvinists.
(edited by F.L. Cross, Oxford Univ. Press, revised edition, 1983, 224, "Calvinism")
Alister McGrath, who published a biography of Calvin in 1990, writes:
Predestination, for Augustine, refers only to the divine decision to redeem, not to the act of abandoning the remainder of fallen humanity.
For Calvin, logical rigour demands that God actively chooses to redeem or to damn. God cannot be thought of as doing something by default: he is active and sovereign in his actions. Therefore God actively wills the salvation of those who will be saved and the damnation of those who will not.
(Reformation Thought, 2nd edition., Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1993, 125)
The Catholic critique is not that Calvinism isn't logical or consistent; rather, that it is consistent to the detriment of God's goodness (especially in its supralapsarian variety). Its logic flows - unfortunately - consistently from its premises, by and large. It is primarily an issue of God's goodness and justice.
THE BALL IS ON YOU JOHN JOSEPH RAS TO SHOW THAT AUGUSTINE AND AQUINAS DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION ARE IDENTICAL WITH THAT OF CALVIN.
In soteriological point of view, we can conclude that Calvinism taught that God has created some people, only to send them to hell.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThat is right. Gosh, you see how terrible that heresy is. It insults the ETERNAL, SOVEREIGN, ABSOLUTE GOODNESS OF GOD AND HIS DIVINE MERCY.
St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas didn't teach that.
Fr. Abe...
ReplyDeleteYour stance in Predestination is that God gives us a choice whether or not to go to Heaven, and that predestination is the effect of our works on earth, right?
And, anyway, that Calvinist you are arguing with is so ignorant! I am a Thomasian and not because UST and Ateneo are competitors in the UAAP, and that its students are contrasting when it comes to lifestyle, that does not mean that the Dominicans and the Jesuits are competing with each other when it comes to Theological teachings.
And to the Calvinist: MAGSAMA KAYO NI CALVIN!!! Predestination doctrines niya, walang kwentang carbon-copy lang ng mga turo nina St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas! HA. HA.
Fr., ang maka calvin na ito dapat hindi na pinapansin. aba sumosobra na yata ang hunghang na ito. papano magkatulad ng pananaw sina St. Thomas at St. Augsutine sa panananaw ni calvin, e nagdeclare na kaya ang Church na heretic sya. Kung ang Magisteium napatunayan na heretic si calvin, disin sana ay dinclare narin heretic and dalawa nating mga Santo. Hindi yon makuha ni maka calvin. Lumalabas ba na mas malalim ang kanyang pag-aaral na ginawa, makakabuti sa kanyang magtayo ng school para ipalaganap nya yan, hindi yong sasapawan nya ang katuruan ng ating Inang Iglesia at palalabasin pang ignorante ka.
ReplyDeleteSa tingin ko gustong makai ride sa popularity ng blog na ito. biruin mo dun daw sya blog nya mag popost ng kanyang posisyon tungkol dito matapos makakuha ng atensyon sa mga katulad namin. kanya na ang blog nya. Continue your apostolate Fr. God bless.
Dear Ian Joseph,
ReplyDelete[Your stance in Predestination is that God gives us a choice whether or not to go to Heaven,]
YES, BRO. IAN. THAT STAND IS FOUNDED ON THE CHURCH DOCTRINE OF THE FREE WILL which can be found in:
CCC#1731 "Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act and not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude."
CCC#1732 "As long as freedom has not bound itself to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blames, merit or reproach."
St. Thomas argues for Free Will this way - The will is free with the freedom of choice of means. If a man's will were not free, all counsels, exhortations, commands, rewards, and punishments would be meaningless things. Man does not always act from necessity. He weighs and considers a course of action; he seeks advice; he judges that this way is to be followed, then perhaps changes his judgment and decides on that way. Nor does a man act with the mere sense-judgment of an animal, an instinctive judgment; he works on an understandable motives. Man acts with the unhampered judgement of an intellect which shows various courses open for choice and makes practical and nonnecessitated decision. In a word man has FREE WILL. In the fact that man is RATIONAL is involved the fact that he has FREE WILL. [cf. ST. THOMAS AQUINAS, Summa Theologia Ia, Q.83, Art.1]
[and that predestination is the effect of our works on earth, right?]
St. Thomas Aquinas attributes Predestination not to human persons [i.e., the destined] but to the in the PERSON WHO PREDESTINES [GOD]. Predestination for St. Thomas and of course for St. Augustine as well is part of DIVINE PROVIDENCE and DIVINE GRACE.
Indeed, you are correct that our Good Works and Prayers are necessitated but our capacity to do so comes from God. [cf. ST. THOMAS AQUINAS, Summa Theologia Ia, Q. 23, Art. 2.; ST. AUGUSTINE, Letter to Sixtus, A.D.418 in Faith of the Early Fathers, ed. William Jurgens, 1452.]
[And, anyway, that Calvinist you are arguing with is so ignorant!]
VERY IGNORANT. NOT ONLY IGNORANT BUT STUPID. Thank God I have personal copy of the Summa and the Decrees of the Council of Trent and other related Documents.
[I am a Thomasian and not because UST and Ateneo are competitors in the UAAP, and that its students are contrasting when it comes to lifestyle, that does not mean that the Dominicans and the Jesuits are competing with each other when it comes to Theological teachings.]
HA, HA, HA... IF HE STATED THAT DOMINICANS AND JESUITS ARE FIGHTING IN UAAP BASKETBALL AND VOLLEYBALL OR EVEN CHEERING SQUAD I WOULD HAVE BELIEVED HIM. HA, HA, HA...
THE GUY IS AS IGNORANT ON THE FACT THAT THE SOCIETY OF JESUS WAS FOUNDED TO COUNTER REFORMATION WHILE THE ORDER OF PREACHER [DOMINICANS] IS THE CHIEF THEOLOGOCIAL ADVISER OF THE POPES AND IS KNOWN AS ANTI-HERESIES.
[And to the Calvinist: MAGSAMA KAYO NI CALVIN!!! Predestination doctrines niya, walang kwentang carbon-copy lang ng mga turo nina St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas! HA. HA.]
CARBON COPY NA DISTORTED PA!
[Fr., ang maka calvin na ito dapat hindi na pinapansin.]
ReplyDeleteHA, HA, HA... OO NGA. KASO NAPANSIN NA NATIN E. KAYA PANSININ ULI. HA, HA, HA...
AKALA NYA UUBRA ANG MGA KABOBOHAN NYA SA BEREANS DITO.
[aba sumosobra na yata ang hunghang na ito.]
MALALA ANG SIRA.
[papano magkatulad ng pananaw sina St. Thomas at St. Augsutine sa panananaw ni calvin, e nagdeclare na kaya ang Church na heretic sya.]
CORRECT.
NAKU MADAMI PA AKONG MGA NATUKLASAN LABAN SA CALVIN NA YAN NA TALAGANG KARUMAL-DUMAL ANG KANYANG THEOLOHIYA. HE, HE, HE... IM DOCUMENTING MY WEAPONS PARA MATULIRO ANG SINTO-SINTO NA YAN.
[Kung ang Magisteium napatunayan na heretic si calvin, disin sana ay dinclare narin heretic and dalawa nating mga Santo.]
CORRECT. SA HALIP SILA AY PINAGPUGAYAN.
NAKIRIDE ON LANG SI CALVIN SA DALAWANG SANTO NATIN. AKALA NYA MALOLOKO NYA TAYO SA KANYANG HERESIA DAHIL SA PAGGAMIT NYA NG MGA TERMINOLOGIES NG MGA SANTO NATIN. NO WAY. HE, HE, HE...
[Hindi yon makuha ni maka calvin.]
KULANG SA KAISIPAN AT SA PINAG-ARALAN.
HINDI NYA ALAM NA ANG SUMMA THEOLOGIA NI ST. THOMAS AY PANGUNAHING REFERENCIA NAMIN SA SEMINARIO MULA PHILOSOPHY TO THEOLOGY STUDIES.
[Lumalabas ba na mas malalim ang kanyang pag-aaral na ginawa, makakabuti sa kanyang magtayo ng school para ipalaganap nya yan, hindi yong sasapawan nya ang katuruan ng ating Inang Iglesia at palalabasin pang ignorante ka.]
SYA ANG IGNORANTE. KITA MO KAHIT NA ANG MGA WORKS NI CALVIN HINDI NYA MA-QUOTE TO SUPPORT HIM. KASI PAG NAGLABAS SYA NG REFERENCIA MULA KAY CALVIN O KAY ST. THOMAS AT ST. AUGUSTINE E BABASAHIN NATIN AGAD KUNG TAMA ANG CLAIM NYA. HA, HA, HA...
IMAGINE, HINDI NYA ALAM NA PART NG DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION NI AUGUSTINE ANG INFANT BAPTISM. HA, HA, HA... BAKIT HINDI NILA TANGGAP ANG INFANT BAPTISM. HA, HA, HA... BOPOL TALAGA.
[Sa tingin ko gustong makai ride sa popularity ng blog na ito.]
GANON NA BA KA POPULAR ANG BLOG NA ITO? IT ONLY HAVE 112 FOLLOWERS AND ABOUT 177,000 VISITORS FROM 197 COUNTRIES. NOT THAT MUCH. HE, HE, HE...
[biruin mo dun daw sya blog nya mag popost ng kanyang posisyon tungkol dito matapos makakuha ng atensyon sa mga katulad namin.]
IBIG SABIHIN TUMATAKBO.
ALAM MO BA NA NAGHAMON YAN NG DEBATE KE BRO. KAPATAS, I MEAN, BRO. FRANZ. NUNG NABUGBOK YUNG KANYANG "JUSTIFICATION SA MATA NG TAO" NAGTAGO. HINDI NA LUMITAW. HA, HA, HA...
[kanya na ang blog nya. Continue your apostolate Fr. God bless.]
OK LANG KUNG DUON SYA MAGPOST. DUN NYA IPAKITA ANG KANYANG KABABAWAN. KASO E NAGPAPARINIG NA HINDI KO DAW PINA-PUBLISH ANG MGA COMMENTS NYA. HA, HA, HA... ANG KAPAL NG MUKANG MAGSINUNGALING. AKO PA, HINDI KO BA IPO-POST ANG MGA COMMENTS NYA E KAILANGAN KO YON PARA MAKUMPLETO ANG DEBATE MATERIALS FOR FUTURE ARTICLES IN THIS BLOG. HE, HE, HE...
NATUTULIRO E. HINDI NYA MA-CLAIM NA CALVINISTS SI STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS. HA, HA, HA...
ANOTHER ESSENATIAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CATHOLIC THEOLOGY OF PREDESTINATION LED BY STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS AGAINST THE HERETIC CALVIN:
ReplyDelete* For Calvin, ADAM WAS THE ONLY MAN WHO POSSESSED A FREE WILL IN REGARD TO SALVATION.
Calvin summarized his position well:
"8. The power and office of the intellect and will in man BEFORE THE FALL. Man’s free will. This freedom LOST BY THE FALL—a fact unknown to philosophers. The delusion of Pelagians and Papists. Objection as to the fall of man when free, refuted." [cf. CALVIN, Institutes of the Christian Religion 1:15:8]
IMAGINE, THAT IS SATANIC. ST. AUGUSTINE AND ST. THOMAS AQUINAS DIDN'T TEACH THAT.
IT MEANS THAT FOR CALVIN ALL HUMAN PERSONS STARTING FROM THE FALL OF ADAM HAVE NO FREE WILL... HA, HA, HA... JOHN JOSEPH RAS HAS NO FREE WILL. IF HE IS SINNING IT IS GOD WHO CAUSES HIM TO SIN AND WHEN HE IS IGNORANT HIS IGNORANCE COMES DIRECTLY FROM THE WILL OF GOD.
HERESY... HERESY... HERESY!!!
For his part, St. Augustine acknowledged the existence of Free Will in Adam both prior and after the Fall. The Bishop of Hippo denied free will ONLY when it is made a STRENGTH of man OUTSIDE THE GRACE OF GOD. This is the reason why St. Augustine condemned Pelagius. Unlike our Catholic Saint and Bishop, Calvin failed to see the intrinsic grace cooperating with Adam to help him resist the fall and helping him to be reconciled with God after the fall:
"The first man did not have that grace by which he would never will to be evil; but surely he had that in which, if he willed to remain, he would never be evil, and without which, even by free choice, he could not be good, but which, nevertheless, by free choice, he could forsake. Neither then did God will him to be without His grace, which he left within that man's free choice. Free choice, therefore, suffices for evil, but is too little for good, unless it be assisted by good that is almighty. If man had not forsaken that assistance by his free choice, he would have been good always; but he did forsake it and he was forsaken. For such was the nature of this assistance that he could forsake it if he so willed and he could remain in it if he so willed; but it was not such that it would bring it about that he would so will" [ST. AUGUSTINE, De corruptione et gratia PL 44, 11, 31; Admonition and Grace, Faith of the Early Fathers by Willaim Jurgens 1954]
AND, HERE IS THE OFFICIAL, CANONICAL AND CONCILIAR CONDEMNATION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OF THAT HERESY:
"If anyone says that after the sin of Adam man's free will was LOST and DESTROYED, or that it is a thing only in a name, indeed a name without a reality, a fiction introduced into the Church by Satan, let him be anathema." [ECUMENICAL COUNCIL OF TRENT, 6th Session, Canon 5]
ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA, ANATHEMA...
Good day Fr. Abe!
ReplyDeleteIsn't it true that this lost of confidence in free will evolved to different philosophical and theological mistakes? Bishop Sheen in his book Peace of Soul elaborated this perfectly: To paraphrase him he said, "Luther said that our free will is totally lost, our works could not save us, only faith can save us; Calvin picked where Luther left, he said that our free will is totally lost, neither work nor faith can save us. Unless we are predestined by God, we cannot be saved;finally, Karl Marx got hold of this teaching. He said, our will is totally lost, neither faith nor God could save us! Only the state could save us!"
What bothers me Fr. is that, if these deformers totally lost their confidence in free will, how come they are promoting 'private judgment' on the other hand?
Bro. Jub Alabastro
DEAR BRO. JUB,
ReplyDelete[Good day Fr. Abe!]
GOOD DAY BRO. JUB. IT'S AN HONOR TO SEE YOU HERE IN SPLENDOR AGAIN.
[Isn't it true that this lost of confidence in free will evolved to different philosophical and theological mistakes?]
VERY TRUE. HERESIES ARE USUALLY INTERCONNECTED PHILOSOPHICALLY AND THEY BREED FROM EACH OTHER.
[Bishop Sheen in his book Peace of Soul elaborated this perfectly: To paraphrase him he said, "Luther said that our free will is totally lost, our works could not save us, only faith can save us; Calvin picked where Luther left, he said that our free will is totally lost, neither work nor faith can save us. Unless we are predestined by God, we cannot be saved;finally, Karl Marx got hold of this teaching. He said, our will is totally lost, neither faith nor God could save us! Only the state could save us!"]
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THIS EXPLANATION FROM ARCH. FULTON J. SHEEN.
[What bothers me Fr. is that, if these deformers totally lost their confidence in free will, how come they are promoting 'private judgment' on the other hand?]
HA, HA, HA... VERY TRUE. IF THEY HAVE REJECTED FREE WILL IN MAN HOW COME THEY ARE ADVOCATING 'PRIVATE INTERPRETATION' OF THE SCRIPTURES. AND THEY ARE GIVING JUDGMENTS ON THEOLOGICAL AND PRACTICAL MATTERS?
THEY ARE TRULY ILLOGICAL AND INCONSISTENT AS A SYSTEM.
[OOPS, THAT MUST BE QUALIFIED. WE AGREE WITH THE TERM BUT AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS ARE NOT REJECCTING GOOD WORKS.]
ReplyDelete_____________
Narito po ang unang Tugon ko: Click here
ABE:
ReplyDelete[And to the Calvinist: MAGSAMA KAYO NI CALVIN!!! Predestination doctrines niya, walang kwentang carbon-copy lang ng mga turo nina St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas! ]
JJR:
Ibig sabihin aminado ka na po magkaparehas sila ng pananaw?
ABE:
ReplyDelete["Wherefore we must say otherwise that in predestination two things are to be considered - namaly, THE DIVINE PREORDINATION; and its EFFECTS. As regards the former, in no possible way can predestination be furthered by the prayers of the saints. For it is notdue to their prayers that anyone is predestined by God. AS REGARDS THE LATTER, predestination is sad to be HELPED BY THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, and by other GOOD WORKS... whether it be one's own prayers, or those of another, or other GOOD WORKS, and such like, WITHOUT WHICH ONE WOULD NOT ATTAIN TO SALVATION."
THAT'S FOR YOUR REJECTION OF GOOD WORKS FOR THOMAS AQUINAS. NOW, TELL ME IF THAT DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION IS IDENTICAL WITH CALVIN. HA, HA, HA...]
Saan po sinabi diyan ni Mang Tomas na ang paghirang ng Diyos ay NAKABATAY sa mabubuting gawa ng mga taong pinili?
ABE:
ReplyDelete[UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU CALVIN DIDN'T TEACH ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE DECREED OR ELECTED TO SALVATION HE ALSO TAUGHT THAT GOD ELECTED OTHERS TO DAMNATION. HA, HA, HA... THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE THEOLOGY OF STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS.]
____________
JR: Wala pong tinuturo si Calvin na "God ELECTED others to damnation". Ang turo po niya ay REPROBATION, ibig sabihin, yung mga hindi pinili ay hinayaan na ng Diyos sa kanilang mga kasalanan. Ganyan din po ang turo nina San Agustin at Mang Tomas.
Basahin niyo po ito:
> Summa Theologica, Q-23, A-3
Basahin niyo rin po ang Book I, Chapter 6 ng aklat ni San Agustin hinggil sa Predestination.
Ganyan na ganyan po ang paniniwala ni John Calvin (Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24), kaya wala pong basihan ang mga paratang niyo. Huwag na po sana kayo magkalat ng maling impormasyon (o tsismis).
ABE:
ReplyDelete[MAY ILANG PAGKAKATULAD SUBALIT MAY ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCES. ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCES.]
JJR:
Saan po sila magkatulad ng pananaw hinggil sa Predestinasyon?
Saan po sila nagkakaiba sa tinutukoy mong ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCES hinggil sa Predestinasyon?
[In soteriological point of view, we can conclude that Calvinism taught that God has created some people, only to send them to hell.]
ReplyDelete___________
Better read Summa Theologica, Q-23, A-3 wherein Aquinas refuted the objections of those who oppose the concept of Sovereign Reprobation.
Here's the link:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article3
[JJR:
ReplyDeleteIbig sabihin aminado ka na po magkaparehas sila ng pananaw?]
NO. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME IN THEOLOGICAL VIEWS. HE, HE, HE... WHY, DO YOU THINK THAT THEY HAVE THE SAME VIEWS? HOW CAN THE FAITHFUL CATHOLICS AND A HERETICAL FOUNDER OF CALVINISM BE HAVING THE SAME THEOLOGICAL VIEWS?
****ABE:
ReplyDelete["Wherefore we must say otherwise that in predestination two things are to be considered - namaly, THE DIVINE PREORDINATION; and its EFFECTS. As regards the former, in no possible way can predestination be furthered by the prayers of the saints. For it is not due to their prayers that anyone is predestined by God. AS REGARDS THE LATTER, predestination is said to be HELPED BY THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, and by other GOOD WORKS... whether it be one's own prayers, or those of another, or other GOOD WORKS, and such like, WITHOUT WHICH ONE WOULD NOT ATTAIN TO SALVATION."
THAT'S FOR YOUR REJECTION OF GOOD WORKS FOR THOMAS AQUINAS. NOW, TELL ME IF THAT DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION IS IDENTICAL WITH CALVIN. HA, HA, HA...]****
[Saan po sinabi diyan ni Mang Tomas na ang paghirang ng Diyos ay NAKABATAY sa mabubuting gawa ng mga taong pinili?]
I DIDN'T SAY THAT PREDESTINATION IS BASED ON GOOD WORKS FOR THE ELECT. THAT IS YOUR STATEMENT NOT MINE. HA, HA, HA...
BUT, WHAT I HAVE SHOWN IN THE QUOTE IS THAT ST. THOMAS AQUINAS HAS A DOCTRINE OF EFFECTS OF DIVINE PREORDINATION BY WHICH THE PRAYERS OF THE CHURCH AND GOOD WORKS ARE HELPFUL FOR THE PREDESTINATION OF THE ELECT. THIS DOCTRINE IS ABSENT WITH CALVIN. THUS, YOUR CLAIM OF SIMILARITY OR OF BEING IDENTICAL IS PATHETIC AND MERE ILLUSION. LET ME CITE IT AGAIN:
"AS REGARDS THE LATTER, predestination is said to be HELPED BY THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS, and by other GOOD WORKS... whether it be one's own prayers, or those of another, or other GOOD WORKS, and such like, WITHOUT WHICH ONE WOULD NOT ATTAIN TO SALVATION."
HA, HA, HA... LOOK AT THAT: WITHOUT WHICH [Prayers of the Saints and by other Good Works] ONE WOULD NOT ATTAIN SALVATION.
IF CALVIN WILL UPHOLD THAT HIS PREDESTINATION WILL CEASE TO BE COMMPATIBLE WITH SOLA FIDE AND IF HE REJECTS THAT PARTICULAR DOCTRINE OF ST. THOMAS THEN THEY ARE NO LONGER IDENTICAL.
PART 1
ReplyDelete*****ABE:
[UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU CALVIN DIDN'T TEACH ABOUT THOSE WHO ARE DECREED OR ELECTED TO SALVATION HE ALSO TAUGHT THAT GOD ELECTED OTHERS TO DAMNATION. HA, HA, HA... THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE THEOLOGY OF STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS.]*****
____________
[JR: Wala pong tinuturo si Calvin na "God ELECTED others to damnation". Ang turo po niya ay REPROBATION, ibig sabihin, yung mga hindi pinili ay hinayaan na ng Diyos sa kanilang mga kasalanan. Ganyan din po ang turo nina San Agustin at Mang Tomas.]
HA, HA, HA... YOU MEAN TO SAY THESE QUOTES ARE NOT TRUE? HERE:
Calvin writes:
“The Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world… Here, surely the fall of Adam is not presupposed as preceding God’s decree in time; but it is what God determined before all ages that is shown, when he willed to heal the misery of mankind” [Institutes 2:12:5].
Elsewhere Calvin writes:
“And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision” [Institutes 3:23:7; see also 3:24:12].
HA, HA, HA... YOU CANNOT DENY THAT THE TEACHING OF YOUR BELOVED THEOLOGIAN IS SATANIC. THE GOD OF CALVINISM IS NOT ONLY SAVIOR BUT ALSO DAMNATOR, MUCH BETTER TERMINATOR. HA, HA, HA...
DEMONIO ANG dios NYO. THAT IS NOT THE CHRISTIAN GOD. THAT IS NOT THE GOOD OF THE BIBLE WHO IS RICH IN MERCY. HA, HA, HA...
[Basahin niyo po ito:
> Summa Theologica, Q-23, A-3]
HA, HA, HA... OF COURSE NABASA KO YAN... SEVERAL TIMES. I HAVE A PERSONAL COPY OF THAT BOOK, 5 VOLUMES IN ALL.
THE PROBLEM WITH CALVIN IS THAT HE IS LIKE YOU. HE DIDN'T DEFINE CLEARLY WHAT HE MEANS BY REPROBATION. ST. THOMAS DEFINED IT IN SUMMA IA, Q.23, ART. 3 AS "Thus as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of the providence TO PERMIT some TO FALL AWAY from that end; this is called REPROBATION."
[Basahin niyo rin po ang Book I, Chapter 6 ng aklat ni San Agustin hinggil sa Predestination.]
ST. THOMAS OF COURSE AGREES WITH ST. AUGUSTINE. HE LOVED AND RESPECT THAT SAINT THAT LIVED PRIOR TO HIM.
PART 2
ReplyDelete[Ganyan na ganyan po ang paniniwala ni John Calvin (Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24), kaya wala pong basihan ang mga paratang niyo. Huwag na po sana kayo magkalat ng maling impormasyon (o tsismis.]
HA, HA, HA... NO, NO, NO. LIAR LIAR LIAR.
THE POSITION OF ST. AUGUSTINE AND ST. THOMAS AQUINAS ARE RESPECTFUL OF THE FREE WILL OF MAN. GOD SIMPLY GIVES 'PERMISSION' TO FALL AWAY ["TO PERMIT"] BUT THE GOD OF CALVIN DOES NOT PERMIT FALLING AWAY INSTEAD:
"CHAPTER 24.
ELECTION CONFIRMED BY THE CALLING OF GOD. THE REPROBATE BRING UPON THEMSELVES THE RIGHTEOUS DESTRUCTION TO WHICH THEY ARE DOOMED."
THAT GENERAL EXPLANATION OF CHAPTER 24 WHICH IS PART OF THE BOOK ITSELF IS SUPPORTED BY THIS STATEMENT WITHIN THE SAME CHAPTER:
"it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity; but it is at the same time stated why they were left to their stubbornness, when the Lord might have softened their hearts: namely, because his immutable decree had once for all doomed them to destruction." [CALVIN, Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24, no. 14]
* FOR CALVIN GOD DOOMED THE FALLEN BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE. HE DID IT. THERE IS A REPROBATION BUT IT IS NOT PERMISSION. THE DECISION IS NOT DEPENDENT ON THE FREE WILL OF MAN WHO HAS LIBERTY TO CHOOSE HIS COURSE... LIFE OR DEATH... AS IN THE POSITION OF AUGUSTINE AND AQUINAS AND THE ENTIRE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH IS SUPPORTED BY SACRED SCRIPTURE:
Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction" AND
Deuteronomy 30:19 "This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now CHOOSE life, so that you and your children may live"
HOW DARE YOU CLAIM THAT OUR POSITION IS TSISMIS. OUR QUOTES ARE SOLID. EVEN PROMINENT THEOLOGIANS FROM OXFORD UNIVERSITY AND DALLAS BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY ARE AGREEING WITH US ON THIS ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCE.
YOU ARE ONLY TRYING TO DEFEND CALVIN IN ORDER TO LESSEN YOUR SHAME. HA, HA, HA...
[JJR:
ReplyDeleteSaan po sila magkatulad ng pananaw hinggil sa Predestinasyon?
Saan po sila nagkakaiba sa tinutukoy mong ESSENTIAL DIFFERENCES hinggil sa Predestinasyon?]
I HAVE ALREADY GIVEN ABOVE. THEY ARE SUPPORTED BY SOLID AND SCHOLARLY CITATIONS AND EVEN PROMINENT THEOLOGIANS CONCUR IN OUR ASSESSMENT OF CALVIN'S POSITION.
CALVIN TEACHES THAT "BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE" GOD DOOMED" OTHERS. THAT IS ABSENT FROM STS. AUGUSTINE AND ST. THOMAS. OUR CATHOLIC GOD DOES NOT DECREE THE DOOMED OF THE SOULS. THE REPROBATION OF OUR SAINTS DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME MEANING WITH THAT OF CALVIN. OURS IS ONLY A SAVIOR BUT NOT DAMNATOR. CALVIN AND YOURS IS ESSENTIALLY CONTRADICTORY: SAVIOR AND DAMNATOR.
SECOND, THE ABSENCE OF FREE WILL IN ADAM AFTER THE FALL.
* DO YOU DARE DENY THESE THINGS?
ABE: [THAT'S FOR YOUR REJECTION OF GOOD WORKS FOR THOMAS AQUINAS. NOW, TELL ME IF THAT DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION IS IDENTICAL WITH CALVIN. HA, HA, HA...]
ReplyDeleteHa? Saan ko sinabing ni-rejek ni Mang Tomas ang mabubuting gawa? Diba ganito ang sabi ko?
Unconditional - meaning, God's choice of people to Salvation is NOT based upon foreseen worthiness upon the chosen individual such as faith, good works, or perseverane. God did not chose them because they would be so, but in order that they might be so.
Hindi ko sinabing Thomas Aquinas rejected good works "period". Ang sabi ko, Thomas Aquinas (together with Augustine and Calvin) rejected THE IDEA THAT GOD'S ELECTION IS BASED UPON FORESEEN MERITS FROM THE CHOSEN INDIVIDUAL.
Magbasa naman po kayong mabuti.
JJR: [Better read Summa Theologica, Q-23, A-3 wherein Aquinas refuted the objections of those who oppose the concept of Sovereign Reprobation.
ReplyDeleteHere's the link:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article3]
HERE IS THE EXPLANATION OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS ON HIS DOCTRINE OF REPROBATION:
"Thus as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of the providence TO PERMIT some TO FALL AWAY from that end; this is called REPROBATION." [ST. THOMAS AQUINAS, SUMMA THEOLOGIAE IA, Q.23, ART. 3 under "On the contrary"]
AND HERE IS WHAT CALVIN WROTE BASED ON THE CHAPTER THAT YOU GAVE ME:
"CHAPTER 24.
ELECTION CONFIRMED BY THE CALLING OF GOD. THE REPROBATE BRING UPON THEMSELVES THE RIGHTEOUS DESTRUCTION TO WHICH THEY ARE DOOMED."
THAT GENERAL EXPLANATION OF CHAPTER 24 WHICH IS PART OF THE BOOK ITSELF IS SUPPORTED BY THIS STATEMENT WITHIN THE SAME CHAPTER:
"it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity; but it is at the same time stated why they were left to their stubbornness, when the Lord might have softened their hearts: namely, because HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE HAD ONCE FOR ALL DOOMED THEM TO DESTRUCTION." [CALVIN, Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24, no. 14]
* THE god OF CALVIN IS A god of DOOM! A DAMNATOR!!!
* THE SAVIOR AND CREATOR AND DIVINE PROVIDENCE OF ALL CANNOT WILL EVIL DIRECTLY IN ETERNY. IT DESTROYS HIS ESSENCE AS ETERNALLY GOOD.
* WE CANNOT ACCEPT CALVIN'S god WHO IS ALSO YOUR god. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME...
HERESY, HERESY, HERESY...
[“The Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world… Here, surely the fall of Adam is not presupposed as preceding God’s decree in time; but it is what God determined before all ages that is shown, when he willed to heal the misery of mankind” (Institutes 2:12:5).
ReplyDelete“And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision” (Institutes 3:23:7; see also 3:24:12).]
Naniniwala po ako diyan, basahin niyo po sa Galacia 3:22. Pero saan po sinabi diyan ni Calvin na "God ELECTED some to damnation"?
_____________
[HA, HA, HA... YOU CANNOT DENY THAT THE TEACHING OF YOUR BELOVED THEOLOGIAN IS SATANIC. THE GOD OF CALVINISM IS NOT ONLY SAVIOR BUT ALSO DAMNATOR, MUCH BETTER TERMINATOR. HA, HA, HA...
DEMONIO ANG dios NYO. THAT IS NOT THE CHRISTIAN GOD. THAT IS NOT THE GOOD OF THE BIBLE WHO IS RICH IN MERCY. HA, HA, HA...]
Bakit niyo naman po nasabing Satanic? ALin dun ang Satanic?
Pano niyo po nasabing demonyo ang Diyos ni John Calvin? Pakipaliwanag po.
_________________
[HA, HA, HA... OF COURSE NABASA KO YAN... SEVERAL TIMES. I HAVE A PERSONAL COPY OF THAT BOOK, 5 VOLUMES IN ALL.]
Oh! Nabasa mo na pala eh! Eh pinaninwialaan mo ba?
__________________
THE PROBLEM WITH CALVIN IS THAT HE IS LIKE YOU. HE DIDN'T DEFINE CLEARLY WHAT HE MEANS BY REPROBATION. ST. THOMAS DEFINED IT IN SUMMA IA, Q.23, ART. 3 AS "Thus as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of the providence TO PERMIT some TO FALL AWAY from that end; this is called REPROBATION."]
Eh ganyan nga ang posisyon ni Calvin hinggil sa Reprobation eh? God decreed the Fall PERMISSIVELY. So malinaw na wala ka po pala talagang kaalam-alam sa tunay na pinaniniwalaan ni Calvin, puro lang po kayo tsismaks.
[Hindi ko sinabing Thomas Aquinas rejected good works "period". Ang sabi ko, Thomas Aquinas (together with Augustine and Calvin) rejected THE IDEA THAT GOD'S ELECTION IS BASED UPON FORESEEN MERITS FROM THE CHOSEN INDIVIDUAL.]
ReplyDeleteGOOD THAT YOU ARE NOT DENYING. YOU ONLY PROVED TO US THAT THE PREDESTINATION OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS IS COMPATIBLE WITH CATHOLIC THEOLOGY OF JUSTIFICATION AND INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE "SOLA FIDE" JUSTIFICATION OF THE REFORMERS SUCH AS CALVIN. THUS, ESSENTIALLY SPEAKING THEY WILL NOT FIT WITH EACH OTHER.
ABE:
ReplyDelete["it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity; but it is at the same time stated why they were left to their stubbornness, when the Lord might have softened their hearts: namely, because HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE HAD ONCE FOR ALL DOOMED THEM TO DESTRUCTION." [CALVIN, Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24, no. 14]
* THE god OF CALVIN IS A god of DOOM! A DAMNATOR!!!]
_____________
Hindi niyo po ba nakita ang sabi diyan?
"...it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity..."
Ibig sabihin, makatarungan ang Diyos na sila'y hatulan sa kaparusahan. Eh ano ngayon kung hindi sila pinili? May obligasyon ba ang Diyos na piliin sila?
UNFAIR po ba ang Diyos kung pumili siya ng ilan, at iwanan naman sa pagkakasala at kaparusahan (doom) ang iba na hindi pinili?
ABE:
ReplyDelete[GOOD THAT YOU ARE NOT DENYING. YOU ONLY PROVED TO US THAT THE PREDESTINATION OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS IS COMPATIBLE WITH CATHOLIC THEOLOGY]
Ibig sabihin opisyal na turo sa RCC ang UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION nina San Agustin at Mang Tomas?
Isa pang tanong, naniniwala po ba kayo (gaya ng pinaniniwalaan nina San Agustin, Mang Tomas, at Calvin) na walang sinuman sa mga hinirang ang tuluyang mapapahamak?
[THE POSITION OF ST. AUGUSTINE AND ST. THOMAS AQUINAS ARE RESPECTFUL OF THE FREE WILL OF MAN. GOD SIMPLY GIVES 'PERMISSION' TO FALL AWAY ["TO PERMIT"] BUT THE GOD OF CALVIN DOES NOT PERMIT FALLING AWAY INSTEAD:]
ReplyDeleteEh ganyan din ang paniniwala ni John Calvin eh?
Tungkol naman sa free will, ang "free will" na tinututulan ni John Calvin ay ang "free will" ayon sa depinisyon ng kanyang mga contemporary opponents.
[“The Father has chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world… Here, surely the fall of Adam is not presupposed as preceding God’s decree in time; but it is what God determined before all ages that is shown, when he willed to heal the misery of mankind” (Institutes 2:12:5).]
ReplyDeleteST. PAUL REFERS HERE TO THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN CHOSEN FOR SALVATION, THAT IS WHY HE REFERRED TO HIMSELF AND THE BELIEVERS 'US'. AND THAT THE BELIEVERS INCLUDING ST. PAUL WAS CHOSEN "IN CHRIST".
THAT IS WHY STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS ATTRIBUTE DAMNATION TO THE FREE WILL OF MAN NOT TO THE ETERNAL DECREE OF GOD.
CALVIN ATTRIBUTED DAMNATION FIRST AND FOREMOST TO THE DIVINE DECREE... THE ETERNAL DECREE OF GOD.
THE POSITION OF CALVIN IS VIOLATING THE STATEMENT OF ST. PAUL. HE NEVER STATED THAT GOD DECREED THE FALL OF ADAM AS CALVIN TEACHES IN YOUR QUOTE ABOVE. HERE I PUT AGAIN:
"Here, surely the fall of Adam is not presupposed as preceding God’s decree in time; but it is what GOD DETERMINED BEFORE ALL AGES that is shown, when he willed to heal the misery of mankind” (Institutes 2:12:5)
HA, HA, HA... THIS IS TERRIBLE. THE PASSAGE SPEAKS OF REDEMPTION IN CHRIST NOT OF FALL OF ADAM AS DETERMINED BY GOD BEFORE ALL AGES:
Ephesians 1:3-7 (New International Version)
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace"
THE FACT THAT ST. PAUL SPOKE OF ELECTION OF THE SAINTS BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD IS NOT REASON FOR CALVIN TO TEACH THAT THERE IS DECREED DAMNATION OR DOOMED BY GOD IN ETERNITY FOR OTHERS.
OBVIOUSLY, CALVIN WENT BEYOND THE TEXT OF THE SCRIPTURE.
[“And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision” (Institutes 3:23:7; see also 3:24:12).
Naniniwala po ako diyan, basahin niyo po sa Galacia 3:22.]
THERE IS A SCRIPTURE PASSAGE SUPPORTING THAT GOD PREDESTINED THOSE HE HAS CHOSEN TO SALVATION AND HE DECREED IT IN ETERNITY AS QUOTED ABOVE. BUT THERE IS NO TEXT SUPPORTING THAT HE DECREED ADAM OR ANYONE ELSE TO DAMNATION OR DOOM FROM ETERNITY.
BY THE WAY HERE IS YOUR REQUESTED VERSE:
Galatians 3:22 (New International Version)
22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
NOTHING IN THERE THAT SUPPORTS THE CLAIM OF CALVIN ABOVE.
IF DAMNATION IS FOUNDED ON THE ETERNAL DECREE OF GOD THEN GOD IS THE CAUSE OF SIN AND HAD WILLED EVIL FOR SOULS WHO ARE NOT PREDESTINED TO HEAVEN.
[Pero saan po sinabi diyan ni Calvin na "God ELECTED some to damnation"?]
WELL, THIS IS WHAT HE WROTE:
"because HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE HAD ONCE FOR ALL DOOMED THEM TO DESTRUCTION." [CALVIN, Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24, no. 14]
DOES IT GIVE YOU CONSOLATION THAT THE WORD ELECTION WAS NOT USED INSTEAD HE 'DOOMED' THEM BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE ONCE FOR ALL? HE, HE, HE...
[Bakit niyo naman po nasabing Satanic? ALin dun ang Satanic?
ReplyDeletePano niyo po nasabing demonyo ang Diyos ni John Calvin? Pakipaliwanag po.]
BECAUSE HE DOOMED SOULS BY IMMUTABLE DECREE IN AN ETERNAL ACT "ONCE FOR ALL". ISN'T THAT SATANIC?
SATAN WANTS SOULS TO GO TO HELL. THE god OF CALVIN ETERNALLY WANTED TO DOOMED TO HELL THOSE SOULS THEN, SATAN AND The god of CALVIN ARE ON THE SAME SIDE. HA, HA,HA... DI BA? SATAN CAN SIMPLY INQUIRE TO Calvin's god: "MAY I KNOW HOW MANY SOULS YOU HAVE IMMUTABLY DECREED FOR ALL AGES TO BE DOOMED WITH ME IN HELL?"
HA, HA, HA... GETS MO?
[Oh! Nabasa mo na pala eh! Eh pinaninwialaan mo ba?]
ReplyDeleteSI ST. THOMAS AQUINAS PINANINIWALAAN KO. AT KUNG ANO ANG NAKASULAT SA SUMMA. PERO IKAW AT SI CALVIN HINDI. KASI PAREHONG HERETICAL AT UNBIBIBLICAL ANG POSITION NYO.
TIGNAN MO ANG MGA SAGOT MO KAHIT ANG MGA QUOTES MO HINDI SUMUSUPORTA SA IYO.
*****[THE PROBLEM WITH CALVIN IS THAT HE IS LIKE YOU. HE DIDN'T DEFINE CLEARLY WHAT HE MEANS BY REPROBATION. ST. THOMAS DEFINED IT IN SUMMA IA, Q.23, ART. 3 AS "Thus as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it is likewise is part of the providence TO PERMIT some TO FALL AWAY from that end; this is called REPROBATION."]*****
ReplyDelete[Eh ganyan nga ang posisyon ni Calvin hinggil sa Reprobation eh?]
MALAYO. VERY FAR. ST. THOMAS NEVER WROTE THAT GOD DOOMED OTHERS BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES. NO, NO, NO... CITATION PLEASE.
[God decreed the Fall PERMISSIVELY.]
WHERE DID CALVIN WROTE THAT? CITATION PLEASE.
[So malinaw na wala ka po pala talagang kaalam-alam sa tunay na pinaniniwalaan ni Calvin, puro lang po kayo tsismaks.]
HA, HA, HA... HA, HA, HA... HA, HA, HA... YOU ARE A VERY GOOD DRAMATIC ACTOR YOU KNOW. HA, HA, HA...
[DOES IT GIVE YOU CONSOLATION THAT THE WORD ELECTION WAS NOT USED INSTEAD HE 'DOOMED' THEM BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE ONCE FOR ALL? HE, HE, HE...]
ReplyDeleteHindi mo po naiintindihan ang mga sinisitas mo kay Calvin. For Calvin, God 'doomed' them in the sense that God DID NOT chose them unto Salvation. It doesn't mean that God capriciously 'doomed' them unto damnation, but instead they are 'doomed' out of necessity.
1) There is X and Y.
2) X and Y are both sinners, that is, WORTHY TO BE DOOMED in hell.
3) God chose X unto Salvation. (The decree to redeem).
4) BY NECESSITY, Y is Reprobated, that is, left in his state of sinfulness apart from any saving grace of God, ready to be finally dommed in hell. (The decree to doom by permission)
5) God's decree to doom (or reprobate) Y is MOST RIGHTEOUS since Y is a sinner in the first place.
6) God's decree to save (or elect) X is MOST GRACIOUS because X deserves nothing but doom due to his sins and transgressions.
Kuha niyo po?
JR: [God decreed the Fall PERMISSIVELY.]
ReplyDeleteABE:
[WHERE DID CALVIN WROTE THAT? CITATION PLEASE.]
____________
JR:
Since kayo po ang nag-assume na "THE GOD OF CALVIN DOES NOT PERMIT FALLING AWAY", diba dapat ako ang maghanap sa inyo ng citation kung SAAN po ba sinabi ni Calvin yan?
[Hindi niyo po ba nakita ang sabi diyan?
ReplyDelete"...it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity..."]
THAT IS WHY CALVIN IS TRYING TO SAVE FACE HERE, LIKE YOU. BUT, HIS CONTRADICTION IS ALREADY APPARENT. HE ATTRIBUTES REPROBATION TO TWO: MAN AND THE ETERNAL DECREE OF GOD. NOW THAT QUOTE:
"...it is not denied that their stubbornness was the result of their own iniquity..."
IS CONTRADICTORY TO HIS PREVIOUS STAND GIVEN IN THE EARLIER EXCHANGES THAT AFTER THE FALL ADAM LOST THE FREE WILL. HOW CAN THERE BE HUMAN PERSONAL INIQUITY IF MAN DOES NOT HAVE FREE WILL ANYMORE. HE LOST IT THROUGH SIN.
SO, IN THE ABSENCE OF FREE WILL THE INIQUITY OF MAN MUST BE ATTRIBUTED TO THE DIVINE DECREE WHO WILLED THOSE SOULS FOR DAMNATION. THEN GOOD IS NO LONGER AN ABSOLUTE MORAL GOOD BECAUSE HE WILLS EVIL BY ITSELF.
[Ibig sabihin, makatarungan ang Diyos na sila'y hatulan sa kaparusahan.]
HOW CAN THEY BE BLAMED FOR THEIR SINS IF THE GOD OF CALVIN IS THE ONE WHO DECREED THEM TO DO THE INIQUITY OR NOT TO DO THE GOOD THAT MUST BE DONE?
[Eh ano ngayon kung hindi sila pinili? May obligasyon ba ang Diyos na piliin sila?]
GOD IS NOT OBLIGATED BY HIS CREATURES BUT HE IS OBLIGATED BY HIMSELF:
*HE IS THE GOD OF LOVE. HOW CAN THE LOVING GOD WHO IS KIND AND MERCIFUL FROM ETERNITY TO ETERNITY DOOMED SOULS WITHOUT HAVING DONE EVIL OUT OF THEIR OWN WILL?
* HE IS THE SUPREME GOOD. THE SUPREME GOOD AND TRUE LOVE DOESN'T DELIGHT IN EVIL THINGS AND SEEK DESTRUCTION OF OTHERS:
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. [1 CORINTHIANS 13]
THE GOD OF CALVIN DELIGHTS IN EVIL... DOOMING SOULS TO ETERNAL FIRE FOR THE THINGS THAT THEY HAVE DONE WITHOUT THEM WILLING IT.
[UNFAIR po ba ang Diyos kung pumili siya ng ilan, at iwanan naman sa pagkakasala at kaparusahan (doom) ang iba na hindi pinili?]
YES. IF YOU JOIN THE CONTEST AND THEN THE RULE IS DECREED FOR THE CHOSEN WINNER AND YOU ARE DOOMED TO LOOSE BY PRIOR DECREE OF THE ORGANIZER THEN THERE IS INJUSTICE.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THAT? IS THAT JUSTICE? THAT IS INJUSTICE. THERE IS NO FAIRNESS. GOD CREATED SOULS SIMPLY TO BE DAMNED. THE HUMAN INVENTORS ARE DAMNING THINGS BUT HOW CAN GOD WILLED FROM ETERNITY THE DAMNATIONS OF HIS OWN IMAGES AND LIKENESSES?
[Ibig sabihin opisyal na turo sa RCC ang UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION nina San Agustin at Mang Tomas?]
ReplyDeletePLEASE DEFINED UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF OCCASIONS WHEN WE USE THE SAME TERM BUT WE DO NOT MEAN THE SAME JUST LIKE JUSTIFICATION, PREDESTINATION, REPROBATION, ETC.
THEN PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE IS THAT IN THE WORKS OF OUR SAINTS AND OF CALVIN.
[Isa pang tanong, naniniwala po ba kayo (gaya ng pinaniniwalaan nina San Agustin, Mang Tomas, at Calvin) na walang sinuman sa mga hinirang ang tuluyang mapapahamak?]
YES, BUT ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO THEY ARE. EXCEPT THOSE WHOM THE BIBLE ALREADY MENTIONED EXPLICITLY AS CHOSEN BY GOD: MARY, THE APOSTLES, JOHN THE BAPTIST, THE PROPHETS, ETC.
THE CLAIM OF THE BORN AGAIN THAT THEY ARE ETERNALLY SAVED IS PREPOSTEROUS AND PATHETIC BECAUSE SALVATION IS AN ON-GOING PROCESS AND SO IS JUSTIFICATION, REDEEMPTION AND FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
****[THE POSITION OF ST. AUGUSTINE AND ST. THOMAS AQUINAS ARE RESPECTFUL OF THE FREE WILL OF MAN. GOD SIMPLY GIVES 'PERMISSION' TO FALL AWAY ["TO PERMIT"] BUT THE GOD OF CALVIN DOES NOT PERMIT FALLING AWAY INSTEAD:]*****
ReplyDelete[Eh ganyan din ang paniniwala ni John Calvin eh?]
NO, NO, NO... HA, HA, HA... VERY FAR. FOR AQUINAS REPROBATION IS ATTRIBUTED TO MAN WHILE FOR CALVIN HE ATTRIBUTES IT TO MAN AND TO THE ETERNAL DECREE OF GOD. SIEMPRE, ULTIMATELY IT IS GOD WHO WILLS THE DOOM OF HIS OWN CREATURE FOR CALVIN. A GOD WHO DIRECTLY WILLS EVIL FOR HIS CREATURES.
[Tungkol naman sa free will, ang "free will" na tinututulan ni John Calvin ay ang "free will" ayon sa depinisyon ng kanyang mga contemporary opponents.]
HA, HA, HA... PALUSOT MO NA LANG YAN. E HE ARGUED THAT ADAM LOST IT AFTER THE FALL SO, CONSEQUENTLY, ALL HUMANITY IS DEPRIVED OF FREE WILL.
SO, ADAM AND THE HUMAN RACE ARE CALVIN'S OPPONENTS. HA, HA, HA... CITATION FOR YOUR CLAIM PLEASE.
[Hindi mo po naiintindihan ang mga sinisitas mo kay Calvin. For Calvin, God 'doomed' them in the sense that God DID NOT chose them unto Salvation. It doesn't mean that God capriciously 'doomed' them unto damnation, but instead they are 'doomed' out of necessity.]
ReplyDeleteTHE GOD OF CALVIN IS NOT A JUST GOD THEREFORE HE IS CAPRICIOUS. UNJUST AND EVIL. UNFAIR AND UNLOVING.
THE POSITION OF CALVIN IS CONTRARY TO THE BIBLICAL DOCTRINE OF THE UNIVERSALITY OF SALVATION: GOD WISHES ALL TO BE SAVED. BUT NOT ALL ARE SAVED BECAUSE OTHERS DISOBEY GOD OR REFUSES HIS GRACE OR WERE TEMPTED BY SIN.
GOD IS LOVE. HE LOVES ALL HIS CREATURES. HE CANNOT BUT LOVE BECAUSE HE IS BY NATURE AND BY ESSENCE LOVE PERSONIFIED. HE IS LOVE ITSELF. HE IS PERFECT LOVE AND SUPREME GOOD AND SOURCE OF ALL GOOD. HE CANNOT WILL EVIL. EVIL IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH HIM.
THE POSITION OF CALVIN IS THAT GOD WILLED NOT TO LOVE OTHERS EVEN BEFORE THEY CAN ACT TO DISOBEY HIM. SO THEY EVEN WHEN THEY ARE NOT YET SINNERS THEY ARE ALREADY DOOMED. THIS IS LIKE ABORTION. REJECTING THE PERSON AS UNWANTED EVEN BEFORE HE CAN COMMIT EVIL.
[1) There is X and Y.]
OK
[2) X and Y are both sinners, that is, WORTHY TO BE DOOMED in hell.]
ARE THE UNBORN SOULS ALREADY SINNERS?
CALVIN SAID THAT GOD DECREED THEIR DOOM BEFORE THE AGES... SO HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THEY ARE ALREADY SINNERS? YOU AND CALVIN HAVE FALLEN INTO CONTRADICTIONS.
[3) God chose X unto Salvation. (The decree to redeem).]
THAT IS ALREADY BIASED. IT MEANS THAT THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOUR GOD IS UNFAIR TO Y.
[4) BY NECESSITY, Y is Reprobated, that is, left in his state of sinfulness apart from any saving grace of God, ready to be finally dommed in hell. (The decree to doom by permission)]
THAT IS ILLOGICAL.
IN ORDER TO SAVE FACE YOU ARE USING THE WORD 'PERMISSION' FOR CALVIN. HA, HA, HA... WHERE DID CALVIN USED THAT WORD? WHERE? CITATION PLEASE.
CALVIN SAID THAT THEY ARE DOOMED BY IMMUTABLE DECREE OF GOD BEFORE THE AGES. THEN THAT IS WITHOUT PERMISSION. THE DECREE WAS NOT WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AND ACTIONS OF THE PERSON. HE HAS NOT COMMITTED SINS YET. HOW CAN YOU USE THE TERM OF ST. THOMAS WHICH REFERS TO A PERSON WHO HAVE BEEN PERMITTED TO CHOOSE EVIL ACTIONS AND ACTUALLY DID IT THEN TURNED INTO A SINNER?
[5) God's decree to doom (or reprobate) Y is MOST RIGHTEOUS since Y is a sinner in the first place.]
WRONG. THOSE SOULS WHOM THE GOD OF CALVIN DAMNED ARE NOT YET SINNERS. THEY WERE NOT YET BORN, THEY HAVE NOT SINNED YET BUT CALVIN'S GOD GAVE THEM TO SATAN ALREADY.
[6) God's decree to save (or elect) X is MOST GRACIOUS because X deserves nothing but doom due to his sins and transgressions.]
THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOUR GOD IS EVIL BECAUSE PRIOR TO BEING A SINNER, FROM ETERNITY THE SOULS WERE ALREADY DOOMED. THAT IS AN EVIL GOD. SATANIC. CALVIN IS HERETIC.
[Kuha niyo po?]
YEAH, KUHANG KUHA. THE GOD OF CALVIN IS TRULY SATANIC AND EVIL. UNJUST AND UNLOVING. VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE GOD OF STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS.
[Since kayo po ang nag-assume na "THE GOD OF CALVIN DOES NOT PERMIT FALLING AWAY", diba dapat ako ang maghanap sa inyo ng citation kung SAAN po ba sinabi ni Calvin yan?]
ReplyDeleteHA, HA, HA... BECAUSE CALVIN DIDN'T EXPLAIN HIS REPROBATION AS GOD 'PERMITTING' THE FALLING AWAY OF THE SINNER AS THOMAS AQUINAS DID IN SUMMA Ia, Q.23, Art. 3. ON THE CONTRARY, CALVIN SAID THAT GOD 'DOOMED' OTHERS BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES. CITATIONS HAVE BEEN GIVEN FOR THESE. WHERE IS YOUR CITATION FOR YOUR CLAIM?
[HA, HA, HA... BECAUSE CALVIN DIDN'T EXPLAIN HIS REPROBATION AS GOD 'PERMITTING' THE FALLING AWAY OF THE SINNER AS THOMAS AQUINAS DID IN SUMMA Ia, Q.23, Art. 3. ON THE CONTRARY, CALVIN SAID THAT GOD 'DOOMED' OTHERS BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES. CITATIONS HAVE BEEN GIVEN FOR THESE. WHERE IS YOUR CITATION FOR YOUR CLAIM?]
ReplyDeleteSo you are MERELY assuming based on your PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of what Calvin said on the "piece" of quote from his Book?
JR:
ReplyDelete[2) X and Y are both sinners, that is, WORTHY TO BE DOOMED in hell.]
ABE:
ARE THE UNBORN SOULS ALREADY SINNERS?
CALVIN SAID THAT GOD DECREED THEIR DOOM BEFORE THE AGES... SO HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT THEY ARE ALREADY SINNERS? YOU AND CALVIN HAVE FALLEN INTO CONTRADICTIONS.
____________
Common sense... God ALREADY KNEW THEY WOULD BE SO for he knew already that all of mankind will Fall through Adam. He knew because he is omniscient. He knew because he permitted it. And since it is permitted, it is included in his divine, immutable decree.
X and Y are sinners in God's foresight even before they were born. So tell me, if in case God did not chose any of them unto Salvation, is God unjust?
Hindi ba ayon sa katarungan ng Diyos ay karapat-dapat lamang parusahan lahat ng makasalanan?
****[HA, HA, HA... BECAUSE CALVIN DIDN'T EXPLAIN HIS REPROBATION AS GOD 'PERMITTING' THE FALLING AWAY OF THE SINNER AS THOMAS AQUINAS DID IN SUMMA Ia, Q.23, Art. 3. ON THE CONTRARY, CALVIN SAID THAT GOD 'DOOMED' OTHERS BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES. CITATIONS HAVE BEEN GIVEN FOR THESE. WHERE IS YOUR CITATION FOR YOUR CLAIM?]****
ReplyDelete[So you are MERELY assuming based on your PRIVATE INTERPRETATION of what Calvin said on the "piece" of quote from his Book?]
YOU ARE A VERY DISHONEST PERSON. JUST TO PUT AWAY YOURSELF IN SHAME YOU ARE CUNNINGLY DISTORTING THINGS. I AM SUPPORTED BY GREAT THEOLOGICAL AUTHORS AND RENOWN THEOLOGIANS FROM THE SIDE OF THE REFORMISTS:
The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church states:
According to him [Calvin], before the Fall and even before creation, God, in his eternal counsels, predestined some of His creatures to salvation and others to damnation. This entails that God wills not only the reprobation of the damned but also the sin which leads to it, as he who wills the end must will the means. This doctrine was later, however, rejected by the more moderate Calvinists.
(edited by F.L. Cross, Oxford Univ. Press, revised edition, 1983, 224, "Calvinism")
Alister McGrath, who published a biography of Calvin in 1990, writes:
Predestination, for Augustine, refers only to the divine decision to redeem, not to the act of abandoning the remainder of fallen humanity.
For Calvin, logical rigour demands that God actively chooses to redeem or to damn. God cannot be thought of as doing something by default: he is active and sovereign in his actions. Therefore God actively wills the salvation of those who will be saved and the damnation of those who will not.
(Reformation Thought, 2nd edition., Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1993, 125)
BOTH CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS ARE AGGREEING WITH MY CONCLUSIONS. THE SAME SCHOLARS ALSO ATTEST THAT CALVIN DIFFERS FROM THESE TWHO SAINTS.
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CANNOT PROVE YOUR ASSERTIONS FROM CALVIN MUCH MORE FROM ST. THOMAS AND ST. AUGUSTINE.
YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON. I APPRECIATE YOUR MODERATION. BUT PLEASE BE HONEST. YOUR SCHOLARSHIP ON THE MATTER IS VERY SHALLOW AND UNFOUNDED.
[YES, BUT ONLY GOD KNOWS WHO THEY ARE. EXCEPT THOSE WHOM THE BIBLE ALREADY MENTIONED EXPLICITLY AS CHOSEN BY GOD: MARY, THE APOSTLES, JOHN THE BAPTIST, THE PROPHETS, ETC.]
ReplyDelete___________
O ayun naman pala eh...
Naniniwala ka rin pala na ang Paghirang ng Diyos ay...
1) Eternal (decreed from eternity past)
2) Unconditional (not based on merits)
3) Immutable (certain)
Yan din po ang paniniwala ni Calvin eh?
Saan po diyan sa mga sinipi niyo sinasabi na Calvin REJECTED the idea that God permitted the Fall?
ReplyDeleteHuwag niyo po sanang idaan sa paramihan ng letra at mga salita. Lagyan niyo po ng sustansya ang mga post niyo para naman convincing.
[Common sense... God ALREADY KNEW THEY WOULD BE SO for he knew already that all of mankind will Fall through Adam. He knew because he is omniscient.]
ReplyDeleteYOU ARE OUT OF SENSE.
FOREKNOWING IS DIFFERENT FROM FOREDOOMING OR FOREDAMNING. HA, HA, HA... THE GOD OF CALVIN DOOMED FROM ETERNITY THE SOULS WHO ARE NOT YET SINNERS.
THE REASON WHY THE FINAL JUDGMENT IS RESERVED AT THE END IS BASED ON THE JUSTICE OF GOD. IF GOD MADE THE FINAL JUDGMENT TO DAMN OR TO DOOM PRIOR TO CREATION THEN HE IS THE ROOT AND SOURCE OF ALL EVIL IN THE WORLD, INCLUDING MORAL AND PRACTICAL EVIL.
[He knew because he permitted it. And since it is permitted, it is included in his divine, immutable decree.]
THAT IS WHY THE GOD OF CALVIN IS EVIL. THAT IS WHY THAT DOCTRINE IS SATANIC. THAT DOCTRINE DESTROYS THE VERY ESSENCE OF GOD AS JUST, GOOD AND LOVE.
[X and Y are sinners in God's foresight even before they were born. So tell me, if in case God did not chose any of them unto Salvation, is God unjust?
[Hindi ba ayon sa katarungan ng Diyos ay karapat-dapat lamang parusahan lahat ng makasalanan?]
IT IS EVIL TO DOOM A PERSON WITHOUT HIM HAVING COMMITTED A CRIME. EVEN ON TEH CROSS WHEN JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED HE WAS CALLING FOR DIVINE MERCY ON THE SINNERS: "FATHER, FORGIVE THEM... THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY DO." THAT IS THE CHRISTIAN GOD. HE IS NOT DAMNING OR DOOMING BUT HE WAS SAVING WITH ALL HIS HEART UNTIL THE TIME OF JUDGMENTS COME.
JUST IMAGINE IF CHRIST HAD SAID: "I AM ONLY DYING FOR SOME... YOU ARE DOOMED ALREADY. I DECREED BEFORE THE AGES THAT YOU ARE DOOMED!" THAT IS TERRIBLE. THAT IS WHY THE GOD OF CALVIN IS NOT THE CHRISTIAN GOD. IT IS SO OPPOSED TO THE LORD JESUS. THE GOOD SHEPHERED SEARCHES FOR HIS LOST SHEEP. HE LOVES THE EVEN THE SINNERS. HE IS A SAVIOR BUT NOT THE DAMNATOR.
THE GOD OF CALVIN IS DAMNATOR!!!
O ayun naman pala eh...
ReplyDelete[Naniniwala ka rin pala na ang Paghirang ng Diyos ay...
1) Eternal (decreed from eternity past)
2) Unconditional (not based on merits)
3) Immutable (certain)
Yan din po ang paniniwala ni Calvin eh?]
E HINDI NAMAN ABOUT PREDESTINATION TO GLORY ANG PAGKAKAIBA E. THE DOCTRINE OF DAMNATION TO THE SOULS FROM ETERNITY. THEN THE LOST OF FREE WILL IN MAN. WE BELIEVE THAT FREE WILL IS NOT LOST. BECAUSE WE ARE FREE.
[IT IS EVIL TO DOOM A PERSON WITHOUT HIM HAVING COMMITTED A CRIME.]
ReplyDeleteUulitin ko... God KNEW already that they would fall with Adam, X and Y alike (and the rest of mankind). In God's foresight, they are already sinners. Do you agree or not?
[Saan po diyan sa mga sinipi niyo sinasabi na Calvin REJECTED the idea that God permitted the Fall?]
ReplyDeleteYOU WERE THE ONE WHO TOLD ME THAT THE REPROBATION OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS AND CALVIN ARE THE SAME. THEN WHEN I SHOWED YOU THAT FOR THOMAS REPROBATION IS SIMPLY GOD PERMITTING THE SINNER TO FALL OR TO COMMIT SIN. WHILE CALVIN DIDN'T TEACH THAT WAY. INSTEAD HIS GOD IS ETERNALLY DAMNING.
IF YOU CAN PROVE THAT CALVIN DIDN'T REJECT 'GOD'S PERMITTING' WILL IT BE HELPFUL TO YOUR CAUSE? HA, HA, HA... NO BECAUSE YOU FAILED TO SHOW THAT INDEED THEY ARE SIMILAR OR IDENTICAL.
PLEASE DON'T FORGET THAT YOU ARE THE ONE TRYING TO PROVE TO ME THAT THEY ARE SIMILAR. SO FAR, EXCEPT THE TERMS THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT.
[Huwag niyo po sanang idaan sa paramihan ng letra at mga salita. Lagyan niyo po ng sustansya ang mga post niyo para naman convincing.]
LET OUR READERS SEE WHO AMONG US IS ILLOGICAL AND LACKING IN SUBSTANCE. ANYWAY, WE ARE BEING READ CLOSELY BY THE APOLOGISTS OF BEREANS FROM BOTH CAMPS AND MUCH MORE. INVITE YOUR PASTORS TO READ THE EXCHANGE AND SEE IF THEY WILL BE PROUD OF YOUR DEFENSE OF THE EVIL-TYPED GOD OF JOHN CALVIN.
[Uulitin ko... God KNEW already that they would fall with Adam, X and Y alike (and the rest of mankind). In God's foresight, they are already sinners. Do you agree or not?]
ReplyDeleteAN UNCOMMITTED CRIME IS NOT A CRIME. EVEN IN THE BIBLE GOD GIVES CHANCES TO HIS PEOPLE. IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, HE KEEPS FORGIVINNG EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE SINNING REPEATEDLY. EACH TIME THEY REPENT HE FORGIVES. THAT BIBLICAL IMAGE OF GOD IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THE HEARTLESS GOD OF CALVIN. YUOR GOD IS EVIL.
[IN ORDER TO SAVE FACE YOU ARE USING THE WORD 'PERMISSION' FOR CALVIN. HA, HA, HA... WHERE DID CALVIN USED THAT WORD? WHERE? CITATION PLEASE.]
ReplyDeleteHeto po,
"...the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission..." [Institutes, I. vvi, 16]
So for Calvin, everything that happens is within the bounds of GOD's eternal and immutable Decree. And this Decree is carried out by God either by direct intervention or by permission.
Now, where did Calvin said that God's decree regarding the Fall is DIRECTLY caused by God himself and NOT by permission? CITATION PLEASE.
[E HINDI NAMAN ABOUT PREDESTINATION TO GLORY ANG PAGKAKAIBA E.]
ReplyDeleteEh yan nga po ang pinaguusapan natin eh?
ABE:
ReplyDelete[THE POSITION OF CALVIN IS CONTRARY TO THE BIBLICAL DOCTRINE OF THE UNIVERSALITY OF SALVATION]
Thomas Aquinas On Whether God Reprobates Any Man (Summa Theologica, Q[23], A[3]):
OBJECTION 1: It seems that God reprobates no man. For nobody reprobates what he loves. But God loves every man, according to (Wis. 11:25): "Thou lovest all things that are, and Thou hatest none of the things Thou hast made." Therefore God reprobates no man.
Reply to Objection 1: God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good---namely, eternal life---He is said to hate or reprobated them.
[AN UNCOMMITTED CRIME IS NOT A CRIME.]
ReplyDeleteGod is not bound in Time and Space.
He sees every man IN SUBSTANCE even before the first moment of their existence according to the Bible.
God knew that X and Y would become sinners, and that is INEVITABLE due to the Fall.
God permitted the Fall to take place, and he also knew perfectly what consequences the Fall would bring to all men, namely, UNIVERSAL SINFULNESS (Rom. 3:9-12).
Therefore, in God's mind and foresight, X and Y are already sinners. THAT'S JUST INEVITABLE because X and Y are both of Adam, which means they are INEVITABLY affected by the original sin of their parent.
Who are X and Y? They are sinners from the very first moment of their existence. They are "shapen in iniquity" and "in sin did their mother conceived them" (Psa. 51:5).
Now let me ask you this: when God looked at X and Y from eternity, didn't God saw them as sinners? Didn't God saw their SUBSTANCE ALREADY even though they did not already exist?
ABE:
ReplyDelete[HA, HA, HA... PALUSOT MO NA LANG YAN. E HE ARGUED THAT ADAM LOST IT AFTER THE FALL SO, CONSEQUENTLY, ALL HUMANITY IS DEPRIVED OF FREE WILL.
SO, ADAM AND THE HUMAN RACE ARE CALVIN'S OPPONENTS. HA, HA, HA... CITATION FOR YOUR CLAIM PLEASE.]
JR:
Maling-mali po ang akala niyo tungkol sa view Calvin hinggil sa "free will". Ang "free will" na tinututulan ng mga repormista ay ang "free will" ayon sa depinisyon ng mga Romanista at iba pang humanista (i.e. Pelagian, Arminian, etc).
Sabi ni Calvin:
"Enough would seem to have been said on the subject of man's will, were there not some who endeavour to urge him to his ruin by a false opinion of liberty, and at the same time, in order to support their own opinion, assail ours..." [Institutes, Book II, Ch. 5, #1]
See? Ang tinitira ni Calvin ay ang "false view" of free will. Naniniwala din siya sa "free will" (according to his definition), pero hindi sa "free will" (according to YOUR definition). He explained:
"...our freedom is not to the extent of leaving us equally inclined to good and evil in act or in thought, but only to the extent of freeing us from compulsion. This liberty is compatible with our being depraved, the servants of sin, able to do nothing but sin.
In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion. This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title? An admirable freedom! that man is not forced to be the servant of sin, while he is, however, ejthelodou'lo" (a voluntary slave); his will being bound by the fetters of sin. I abominate mere verbal disputes, by which the Church is harassed to no purpose; but I think we ought religiously to eschew terms which imply some absurdity, especially in subjects where error is of pernicious consequence." [Institutes, Book II, Ch. 2, #6-7]
ABE:
ReplyDelete[PLEASE DEFINED UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF OCCASIONS WHEN WE USE THE SAME TERM BUT WE DO NOT MEAN THE SAME JUST LIKE JUSTIFICATION, PREDESTINATION, REPROBATION, ETC.
THEN PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE IS THAT IN THE WORKS OF OUR SAINTS AND OF CALVIN.]
JR:
Heto po ang definition (PLEASE READ VEEEERYYY CAREFULLY, para hindi niyo nanaman po ma-misrepresent gaya ng ginawa niyo nung nakaraan)
Unconditional Election - meaning, God's choice of people unto Salvation from eternity past is NOT based upon any foreseen worthiness on the chosen ones such as faith, good works, or perseverance.
* God did not elect them because they would be faithful, but in order that they might be so.
* God did not elect them because they would be holy, but in order that they might be so.
* God did not elect them because they would persevere, but in order that they would do so.
Do you agree with this or not?
[Heto po,]
ReplyDeleteTHANK YOU. I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THAT.
["...the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission..." [Institutes, I. vvi, 16]]
WAIT A MINUTE. YOU ARE DECEIVING ME.
YOU GAVE ME BOOK 111, CHAPTER 24 OF CALVIN'S INSTITUTE FOR HIS DOCTRINE OF REPROBATION AND INDEED THAT CHAPTER SPEAKS OF CALVIN'S EXPLANATION OF REPROBATION.
BUT WHAT YOU ARE QUOTING TO ME IS NOT FROM BOOK III BUT BOOK ONE WHOSE FOCUS IS 'OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD THE CREATOR'. WHILE BOOK THREE SPEAKS OF 'THE MODE OF OBTAINING THE GRACE OF CHRIST. THE BENEFITS IT CONFERS, AND THE EFFECTS RESULTING FROM IT' IN WHICH THE ISSUE OF PREDESTINATION AND REPROBATION PROPERLY BELONGS.
THUS, YOUR QUOTE IS MISLEADING. BECAUSE CALVIN IS NOT SPEAKING THERE ABOUT REPROBATION BUT CREATION. THUS, THE QUOTE "...the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission..." REFERS TO GOD AS THE FIRST CAUSE, THE ORIGIN AND SOURCE OF CREATION. HA, HA, HA...
IF THAT STATEMENT WILL BE APPLIED TO REPROBATION AS YOU HAVE DONE DECEITFULLY THEN THE MORE YOU ARE MAKING THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOURS SATANICALLY EVIL. BECAUSE YOUR GOD WILL BE THE SUPREME AND PRIMARY CAUSE OF DAMNATION OF SOULS AND THE EVIL THAT THEY COMMIT FOR WHICH HE REPROBATE THEM BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES.
THIRD, WHERE DID YOU EXACTLY GET THAT QUOTE. YOU CITED I which means BOOK 1. THEN, THE NEXT NUMBER MUST BE THE CHAPTER AND YOU GAVE ME "vvi". WHAT IS THAT VV1? V + V = 10 AND i = 1 SO IT MUST BE CHAPTER ELEVEN, ARTICLE 16. YET, I DIDN'T FIND THAT QUOTE THERE. THE ISSUE BEING DISCUSSED IS ABOUT IDOLS.
SINCE YOU CLAIM TO BE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE THAN ME MAY I SUGGEST THAT YOU PROVIDE PROPER AND SCHOLARLY AND SYSTEMATIC CITATION PLEASE. AND, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT?
[So for Calvin, everything that happens is within the bounds of GOD's eternal and immutable Decree. And this Decree is carried out by God either by direct intervention or by permission.]
WRONG. CALVIN IS REFERRING TO CREATION AS A MAJOR TOPIC IN THAT BOOK AND NOT REPROBATION. YOU ARE APPLYING ONE PRINCIPLE WHICH IS NOT APPLIED TO ANOTHER. ANYWAY, IN EACH CASE IT IS TERRIBLE AND DETRIMENTAL TO YOUR CAUSE.
IF YOUR INTERPRETATION AND APPLICATION ARE CORRECT THEN YOUR GOD IS TRULY EVIL AND THE SUPREME CAUSE OF EVIL AS WELL AS DAMNATION. IF THEY ARE NOT TRUE THEN YOU ARE DECEIVING US AND IS PRESENTING A LIE.
[Now, where did Calvin said that God's decree regarding the Fall is DIRECTLY caused by God himself and NOT by permission? CITATION PLEASE.]
HERE IT IS:
because HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE HAD ONCE FOR ALL DOOMED THEM TO DESTRUCTION." [CALVIN, Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24, no. 14]
IT WAS GOD WHO DOOMED THEM BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES. HA, HA, HA... THAT IS DIRECT. ONLY GOD IS ETERNAL. SO THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOUR GOD IS THE ONLY ONE EXISTING WHEN HE DID HIS DAMNING DECREE. HIS EVIL ACT OF SENDING EVEN THE UNCREATED SOULS TO THEIR ULTIMATE DOOM. HA, HA, HA...
* THE god OF CALVIN IS A god of DOOM! A DAMNATOR!!!
CALVIN'S DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION AND REPROBATION ARE TRULY EVIL, SATANIC.
ABE:
ReplyDelete[WAIT A MINUTE. YOU ARE DECEIVING ME.
YOU GAVE ME BOOK 111, CHAPTER 24 OF CALVIN'S INSTITUTE FOR HIS DOCTRINE OF REPROBATION AND INDEED THAT CHAPTER SPEAKS OF CALVIN'S EXPLANATION OF REPROBATION.
BUT WHAT YOU ARE QUOTING TO ME IS NOT FROM BOOK III BUT BOOK ONE WHOSE FOCUS IS 'OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD THE CREATOR'. WHILE BOOK THREE SPEAKS OF 'THE MODE OF OBTAINING THE GRACE OF CHRIST. THE BENEFITS IT CONFERS, AND THE EFFECTS RESULTING FROM IT' IN WHICH THE ISSUE OF PREDESTINATION AND REPROBATION PROPERLY BELONGS.
THUS, YOUR QUOTE IS MISLEADING. BECAUSE CALVIN IS NOT SPEAKING THERE ABOUT REPROBATION BUT CREATION. THUS, THE QUOTE "...the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission..." REFERS TO GOD AS THE FIRST CAUSE, THE ORIGIN AND SOURCE OF CREATION. HA, HA, HA...]
JR:
Teka, diba ang pinaguusapan po natin ay ang DECREE regarding the Fall? Pinararatangan mo kasi si Calvin na tinuturo niyang ang FALL ay DIRECTLY CAUSED by God (bagay hindi mo pa napapatunayan).... pero ang sabi ni Calvin, nothing happens without God's order (i.e. direct intervention) or permission.
So where did Calvin said that THE FALL IS DIRECTLY CAUSED by God AND NOT permitted by Him?
ABE:
ReplyDelete[THIRD, WHERE DID YOU EXACTLY GET THAT QUOTE. YOU CITED I which means BOOK 1. THEN, THE NEXT NUMBER MUST BE THE CHAPTER AND YOU GAVE ME "vvi". WHAT IS THAT VV1? V + V = 10 AND i = 1 SO IT MUST BE CHAPTER ELEVEN, ARTICLE 16. YET, I DIDN'T FIND THAT QUOTE THERE. THE ISSUE BEING DISCUSSED IS ABOUT IDOLS.
SINCE YOU CLAIM TO BE MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE THAN ME MAY I SUGGEST THAT YOU PROVIDE PROPER AND SCHOLARLY AND SYSTEMATIC CITATION PLEASE. AND, WHERE DID YOU GET THAT?]
JR:
Sorry, it's in Book I, xvi, 8.
ABE:
ReplyDelete[WRONG. CALVIN IS REFERRING TO CREATION AS A MAJOR TOPIC IN THAT BOOK AND NOT REPROBATION. YOU ARE APPLYING ONE PRINCIPLE WHICH IS NOT APPLIED TO ANOTHER. ANYWAY, IN EACH CASE IT IS TERRIBLE AND DETRIMENTAL TO YOUR CAUSE.
IF YOUR INTERPRETATION AND APPLICATION ARE CORRECT THEN YOUR GOD IS TRULY EVIL AND THE SUPREME CAUSE OF EVIL AS WELL AS DAMNATION. IF THEY ARE NOT TRUE THEN YOU ARE DECEIVING US AND IS PRESENTING A LIE.]
JR:
ANg sabi ni Calvin, NOTHING HAPPENS without God's order or permission. Hindi ba kasama sa "NOTHING HAPPENS" yung The Fall, and every sins of mankind?
And where did Calvin said that God DOES NOT permit the sinning of his creatures, but DIRECTLY CAUSES them to do so? And where did Calvin said that God DID NOT PERMIT the Fall, but DIRECTLY CAUSED it?
Hanggang ngayon wala parin.
ABE:
ReplyDelete[HERE IT IS:
because HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE HAD ONCE FOR ALL DOOMED THEM TO DESTRUCTION." [CALVIN, Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24, no. 14]
JR:
Now you are the one deceiving me. It is true that God decreed the doom of the Reprobate, but where did it said that God is the DIRECT CAUSE of their sins? Calvin said that nothing happens apart from God's order or permission. So God's Decree is carried out either by His order (direct intervention), or by permission.
Now where did Calvin said that God carries out His Decree to Reprobate (including it's means) by DIRECT INTERVENTION and NOT by permission?
ABE:
ReplyDelete[HERE IT IS:
because HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE HAD ONCE FOR ALL DOOMED THEM TO DESTRUCTION." [CALVIN, Institutes, Book III, Ch. 24, no. 14]]
By the way,
Sino po ba ang tinutukoy ni Calvin diyan? Sino yung "them"?
[Eh yan nga po ang pinaguusapan natin eh?]
ReplyDeleteHA, HA, HA... WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO PROVE IS WHETHER THAT THEIR DOCTRINES OF PREDESTINATION ARE SIMILAR OR IDENTICAL OR NOT.
YOU HAVE NOT PROVEN THAT, EXCEPT IN THE FACT THAT THE TERMS ARE THE SAME. THE DOCTRINES ARE DIFFERENT, THE THEOLOGIES ARE DIFFERENT. THE CONCLUSIONS ARE DIFFERENT AND THEIR APPLICAITONS ARE DIFFERENT. HA, HA, HA...
[Thomas Aquinas On Whether God Reprobates Any Man (Summa Theologica, Q[23], A[3]):
ReplyDeleteOBJECTION 1: It seems that God reprobates no man. For nobody reprobates what he loves. But God loves every man, according to (Wis. 11:25): "Thou lovest all things that are, and Thou hatest none of the things Thou hast made." Therefore God reprobates no man.
Reply to Objection 1: God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good---namely, eternal life---He is said to hate or reprobated them.]
BUT THE GOD OF ST. THOMAS DIDN'T DOOM THEM OR PUT THEM TO DAMNATION BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES AS THE DEMONIC GOD OF CALVIN AND YOURS. HE SIMPLY DIDN'T WISH SOME GOOD IN THEM. THAT POSITION IS FURTHER CLARIFIED IN HIS REPLY TO OBJECTION 2:
"But guilt proceeds from THE FREE-WILL OF THE PERSON who is reprobated and deserted by grace. In this way the word of the prophet is true - namely, Destruction is thy own, O Israel." [ST. THOMAS AQUINAS, Ia, Q. 23, Art. 3 Reply to Obj.2]
HA, HA, HA... FOR JOHN CALVIN HUMANITY LOST FREE WILL BY SIN. SO, NO ONE HAS FREE WILL EXCEPT ADAM PRIOR TO THE FALL OR JESUS OF COURSE. BUT ST. THOMAS DOES NOT HOLD THAT. REPROBATION IS ARISING FROM THE FREE WILL OF MAN. WITHOUT FREE WILL THEN MAN DIDN'T SIN VOLUNTARILY. SO, EFFECTIVELY FOR CALVIN THE SOURCE OF SIN AND EVIL IS HIS DAMNATOR GOD. ST. THOMAS FURTHER EXPLAINED IN THE LAST TWO SENTENCES OF HIS REPLY TO OBJECTION 3:
"Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his FREE WILL. Hence, it is rightly imputed to him as guilt." [ST. THOMAS AQUINAS, Ia, Q. 23, Art. 3 Reply to Obj.3]
IN THE ABSENCE OF FREE WILL FOR HUMAN PERSONS BASED ON CALVIN'S THEOLOGY THEN IT IS WRONG TO IMPUTE GUILT ON THE HUMAN PERSON. HIS SINS AND GUILTS ARE ATTRIBUTED TO THE DAMNATOR GOD OF CALVIN.
[God is not bound in Time and Space.]
ReplyDeleteCORRECT. THAT IS WHY IF HE DAMNED SOULS IN ETERNITY BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE THEN HE IS UNJUST AND EVIL IN ETERNITY.
THE GOD OF CALVIN IS UNJUST AND EVIL IN ETERNITY.
[He sees every man IN SUBSTANCE even before the first moment of their existence according to the Bible.]
THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT HE DAMNED OR DOOMED SOULS FROM ETERNITY. CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.
HE DAMNED LUCIFER WHEN HE REBELLED BUT BEFORE THAT HE WAS NOT SENT OUT OF HEAVEN. PINASISIKAT NYA ANG ARAW SA MABUTI AT MASAMANG TAO SA LUPA WHILE THEY ARE LIVING. HE DOESNT WANT HIS ANGELS TO BURN THE FRUITLESS IMMEDIATELY, THEY WERE CULTIVATED FIRST AND GIVEN FERTILIZER.
THERE IS NO BIBLICAL FOUNDATION FOR THE DAMNATOR GOD OF CALVIN.
[God knew that X and Y would become sinners, and that is INEVITABLE due to the Fall.]
GOD KNEW, BUT FOREKNOWING IS DIFFERENT FROM FOREDAMNING OR FOREDOOMING. THE GOD OF CALVIN IS THE FIRST AND ULTIMATE AND SUPREME DAMNATOR AND DOOMER.
[God permitted the Fall to take place, and he also knew perfectly what consequences the Fall would bring to all men, namely, UNIVERSAL SINFULNESS (Rom. 3:9-12).]
GOD PERMITTED THE FALL, THAT IS AUGUTINIAN, THOMISTIC AND CATHOLIC THEOLOGY. BUT THE CALVINIST THEOLOGY DIFFERS MUCH: 'GOD DAMNED' SOULS TO DOOM. THE GOD OF CALVIN IS 'GOD DAMNED'. DAMNATOR!!!
[Therefore, in God's mind and foresight, X and Y are already sinners.]
IN CALVIN'S THEOLOGY THEY ARE NOT SINNERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE FREE WILL. THEY ARE OBEDIENT CREATURES WHO SIMPLY FULFILLED THE DAMNATION PREPARED FOR THEM BY THE DAMNATOR GOD FROM ETERNITY. THE GOD OF CALVIN IS THE CAUSE OF SIN. HE IS THE DAMNATOR. THE CREATURES ARE NOT FREE.
[THAT'S JUST INEVITABLE because X and Y are both of Adam, which means they are INEVITABLY affected by the original sin of their parent.]
BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE DAMNATION HAS BECOME INVITABLE. THERE IS NO CHANCE AT ALL FOR THE CREATURES TO BE SAVED. THE GOD OF CALVIN IS INEVITABLY EVIL, UNJUST AND UNLOVING.
[Who are X and Y? They are sinners from the very first moment of their existence.]
THEY ARE NOT SINNERS BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING THAT IS CONTRARY TO THE WILL OF THE EVIL DAMNATOR. THEY FULFILLED THE WISH OF THE DOOMER GOD. WHEN ONE FULFILL HIS DESTINY WITHOUT FREEDOM TO DO OTHERWISE THEN THERE IS NO SIN BUT AN OBEDIENT CREATURE THAT SUCCESSFULLY DONE WHAT IS DECREED FOR HIM.
[They are "shapen in iniquity" and "in sin did their mother conceived them" (Psa. 51:5).]
THAT REFERS TO THE UNBORN CHILD AFFECTED BY THE SIN OF ADAM. BUT IT DOES NOT REFER TO THE CLAIM OF CALVIN THAT GOD DOOMED SOME SOULS BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES.
[Now let me ask you this: when God looked at X and Y from eternity, didn't God saw them as sinners?]
GOD SAW THEM AS HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS SINLESS YET. HE KNOWS THAT LATER THEY WILL SIN BUT HE DIDN'T DOOMED THEM BY HIS IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES. THE DAMNATOR GOD IS EVIL.
[Didn't God saw their SUBSTANCE ALREADY even though they did not already exist?]
THEIR SUBSTANCE IS NOT EVIL BUT 'GOOD'. GOD CONCEIVED THEM AS GOOD, HE PLANNED THEM AS GOOD AND HE CREATED THEM GOOD. EVIL COMES FROM THE INIQUITY OF MAN WHICH IS HIS OWN. THE GOD OF CALVIN INSTEAD IS EVIL BY SUBSTANCE. HE CREATED EVIL PERSONS GOOD ONLY FOR DAMNATION.
ABE:
ReplyDelete[THEIR SUBSTANCE IS NOT EVIL BUT 'GOOD'. GOD CONCEIVED THEM AS GOOD, HE PLANNED THEM AS GOOD AND HE CREATED THEM GOOD.]
JR:
...wow., sounds Pelagian to me.
So nasan ang Doctrine of UNIVERSAL SALVATION dito?
ReplyDeleteOBJECTION 1: It seems that God reprobates no man. For nobody reprobates what he loves. But God loves every man, according to (Wis. 11:25): "Thou lovest all things that are, and Thou hatest none of the things Thou hast made." Therefore God reprobates no man.
Reply to Objection 1: God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good---namely, eternal life---He is said to hate or reprobated them.
PART 1
ReplyDelete[Maling-mali po ang akala niyo tungkol sa view Calvin hinggil sa "free will". Ang "free will" na tinututulan ng mga repormista ay ang "free will" ayon sa depinisyon ng mga Romanista at iba pang humanista (i.e. Pelagian, Arminian, etc).]
HA, HA, HA... NAKU NAMAN JJR WAG NA TAYONG MAGLOKOHAN. E SI ST. AUGUSTINE AT SI ST. THOMAS AQUINAS E 'ROMANISTA' PARA SA MGA REFORMERS E. SILA AY KABILANG SA 'ROMAN CHURCH'. MGA CATOLICO ANG MGA YAN E. HA, HA, HA...
NAPAKA OA NAMAN NA SASABIHIN MONG KINAKALABAN NYA ANG MGA PELAGIANS E GINAPI NA NI ST. AUGUSTINE, ST. AMBROSE AT ST. CYPRIAN ANG MGA IYON. SILA AY PAWANG MGA BISHOPS NG ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH.
YOUR ALIBI DOESN'T JIBE WITH REALITY. YOU ARE MERELY SAVING FACE TO LESSEN THE SHAME OF HAVING THE SAME DAMNATOR GOD WITH JOHN CALVIN.
[Sabi ni Calvin:
"Enough would seem to have been said on the subject of man's will, were there not some who endeavour to urge him to his ruin by a false opinion of liberty, and at the same time, in order to support their own opinion, assail ours..." [Institutes, Book II, Ch. 5, #1]]
WHAT HE IS STATING HERE IS THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT FREE WILL ANYMORE. HA, HA, HA... BECAUSE HE IS ASSAILED. HA, HA, HA...
NOW LET ME CHECK YOUR QUOTE:
[Institutes, Book II, Ch. 5, #1]]
HA, HA, HA... LOOK AT THE VERY TITLE OF BOOK II, CHAPTER 5:
"THE ARGUMENTS USUALLY ALLEGED IN SUPPORT OF FREE WILL REFUTED."
HA, HA, HA... CALVIN IS REFUTING ARGUMENTS SUPPORTING FREE WILL. HA, HA, HA... SO HE REALLY DENIES FREE WILL. HA, HA, HA...
YOU ARE LYING TO ME JOHN JOSEPH RAS. LOOK AT YOUR STATEMENT:
"Maling-mali po ang akala niyo tungkol sa view Calvin hinggil sa "free will". Ang "free will" na tinututulan ng mga repormista ay ang "free will" ayon sa depinisyon ng mga Romanista at iba pang humanista (i.e. Pelagian, Arminian, etc).]
YOU ARE MAKING IT APPEAR AS IF CALVIN IS SIMPLY OPPOSING THE WRONG DOCTRINES OF FREE WILL BY HIS OPPONENTS. HA, HA, HA... NO, NO, NO!!! CALVIN DENIES FREE WILL ITSELF AGAINST HIS OPPONENTS. HA, HA, HA...
PART 2
ReplyDelete[See? Ang tinitira ni Calvin ay ang "false view" of free will.]
LIAR, LIAR, LIAR... CALVIN DENIES FREE WILL. HE REFUTED ARGUMENTS SUPPORTING FREE WILL AS HIS OWN TITLE DECLARES. HA, HA, HA...
[Naniniwala din siya sa "free will" (according to his definition), pero hindi sa "free will" (according to YOUR definition).]
"CHAPTER 5. - THE ARGUMENTS USUALLY ALLEGED IN… Next »
272CHAPTER 5.
THE ARGUMENTS USUALLY ALLEGED IN SUPPORT OF FREE WILL REFUTED."
HA, HA, HA... YOUR OWN CITED DOCUMENT BELIES YOUR CLAIM. HA, HA, HA... ARE YOU REALLY READING YOUR CITATIONS. IT SEEMS THAT YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF WHAT YOU ARE QUOTING. HA, HA, HA...
[He explained:
["...our freedom is not to the extent of leaving us equally inclined to good and evil in act or in thought, but only to the extent of freeing us from compulsion. This liberty is compatible with our being depraved, the servants of sin, able to do nothing but sin.]
WAIT, WAIT, WAIT... THIS STATEMENT DOES NOT BELONG TO CALVIN BUT TO PETER LOMBARD WHO IS A CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN. LOOK AT THIS: "For LOMBARD ultimately declares (lib. 2 Dist. 25), that our freedom is not to the extent of leaving us equally inclined to good and evil in act or in thought, but only to the extent of freeing us from compulsion. This liberty is compatible with our being depraved, the servants of sin, able to do nothing but sin."
ACTUALLY, CALVIN IS SAYING THAT THE POSITION OF LOMBARD WHICH IS SUPPORTIVE OF FREE WILL IS COMPATIBLE WITH HIS STAND. THAT IS CONTRADICTORY. CALVIN CONSIDERS MAN AS DEPRAVED OF FREE WILL AND IS ALREADY DAMNED FROM ETERNITY BY IMMUTABLE DECREE WHILE LOMBARD ARGUES FOR FREE WILL AND THEREFORE NOT A DEPRAVED MAN BUT A MAN IN LIBERTY... FREEDOM OF CHOICE. HA, HA, HA...
MUCH MORE, CALVIN'S POSITION IS NOT FREE WILL. BECAUSE THERE IS NO EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO EITHER DO GOOD OR EVIL. LOOK AT HIS STATEMENT "able to do nothing BUT SIN". HA, HA, HA... DO YOU CALL THAT FREEDOM? THAT IS NOT FREE WILL, THAT IS SLAVERY. THE GOD OF CALVIN IS NOT ONLY A DAMNATOR BUT ALSO THE GREATEST SLAVE-MASTER FROM ETERNITY. THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOURS IS SIMILAR TO THE DEMON LIZARDO, THE VILLAIN OF PANDAY. HA, HA, HA...
YOU ARE LYING TO US ONCE AGAIN. YOU ARE PRETENDING AS IF THE QUOTE IS OF CALVIN. THAT'S INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY.
PART 3
ReplyDelete["In this way, then, man is said to have free will, not because he has a free choice of good and evil, but because he acts voluntarily, and not by compulsion."]
HE IS NOT TEACHING ABOUT FREE WILL HERE. CALVIN IS SIMPLY TRYING TO FIT LOMBARD'S POSITION AS SOMETHING COMPATIBLE WITH HIS BUT HIS STAND IS THAT MAN IS RELLY PRONED TO SIN AND THUS ACTUALLY DOWNPLAYING THE FREE WILL OF LOMBARD.
CALVIN HIMSELF ADMITTED THAT ST. AUGUSTINE REFUSED TO CLAIM THAT THE WILL IS SLAVE OR DEPRAVED AS HE IS TEACHING. HE ALSO ADMITTED THAT ST. AUGUSTINE DISGREE WITH THOSE WHO DENY FREE WILL BUT HE SIMPLY MADE A HOCUS-POCUS EXPLANATION TO JUSTIFY HIS OWN OPPOSITION TO FREE WILL:
"As to the Fathers (if their authority weighs with us), they have the term constantly in their mouths; but they, at the same time, declare what extent of meaning they attach to it. In particular, Augustine hesitates not to call the will a slave. In another passages he is offended with those who deny free will; but his chief reason for this is explained when he says, “Only lest any one should presume so to deny freedom of will, from a desire to excuse sin.”" [Institutes, Book II, Ch. 5, #8]
ST. AUGUSTINE IS OFFENDED BY THOSE WHO DENY FREE WILL. HA, HA, HA... THUS, HE IS OFFENDED BY CALVIN. THE PALUSOT OF CALVIN IS VERY CHEAP. UNCONVINCING AND ILLOGICAL.
HE CUNNINGLY TRIES TO APPEAR AS IF AGREEING WITH LOMBARD AND AUGUSTINE BUT HE IS DENYING THEIR ESSENTIAL POSITIONS. THE CATHOLIC THEOLOGIANS: AUGUSTINE, AQUINAS AND LOMBARD UPHOLD THE FREE WILL OF MEN.
"This is perfectly true: but why should so small a matter have been dignified with so proud a title? An admirable freedom! that man is not forced to be the servant of sin, while he is, however, ejthelodou'lo" (a voluntary slave); his will being bound by the fetters of sin. I abominate mere verbal disputes, by which the Church is harassed to no purpose; but I think we ought religiously to eschew terms which imply some absurdity, especially in subjects where error is of pernicious consequence." [Institutes, Book II, Ch. 2, #6-7]]
HA, HA, HA... YOU JUMPED FROM CHAPTER 5 TO CHAPTER 2. HA, HA, HA... IBANG TOPIC NA NAMAN DYAN. NAKU, YOU ARE RUNNING AROUND THE FIRE. HA, HA, HA...
ARE YOU SURE THAT YOUR INTERPRETATION IS CORRECT? LOOK ONCE AGAIN AT WHAT CALVIN TRIES TO PROVE IN BOOK II, CHAPTER 2 OF HIS INSTITUTES OF CHRISTIAN RELIGION:
"CHAPTER 2.
MAN NOW DEPRIVED OF FREEDOM OF WILL, AND MISERABLY ENSLAVED."
HA, HA, HA... MAN IS DEPRIVED OF FREE WILL. MUCH MORE MAN IS MISERABLY ENSLAVED. OF COURSE IF HE IS NOT FREE HE IS A SLAVE. HA, HA, HA...
SO MUCH FOR YOUR CALVIN'S VIEW OF FREE WILL. HE DENIES AND REJECTS FREE WILL:
"You see how every thing is denied to free will, for the very purpose of leaving no room for merit. And yet, as the beneficence and liberality of God are manifold and inexhaustible, the grace which he bestows upon us, inasmuch as he makes it our own, he recompenses as if the virtuous acts were our own." [CALVIN, Institutes Bk II, chap 5, no. 2 last sentence].
CALVIN SATANICALLY DENIES FREE WILL. THIS IS CONTRARY TO THE POSITION OF STS. AUGUSTINE AND AQUINAS.
[Heto po ang definition (PLEASE READ VEEEERYYY CAREFULLY, para hindi niyo nanaman po ma-misrepresent gaya ng ginawa niyo nung nakaraan)]
ReplyDeleteYOU ARE THE ONE WHO SHOULD READ CAREFULLY. YOU ARE INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST. EVEN THE POSITION OF LOMBARD YOU ARE PRESENTING AS THAT OF CALVIN. THEN YOU ARE INSISTING THAT CALVIN DOES NOT REJECT FREE WILL BUT I HAVE PROVEN OFFICIALLY CONCURRED BY RENOWN THEOLOGIANS THAT HE REJECTS FREE WILL.
YOU ARE WILLING TO INCREASE YOUR LIES TO SAVE YOUR FACE AND YOUR TEETH. HA, HA, HA...
[Unconditional Election - meaning, God's choice of people unto Salvation from eternity past is NOT based upon any foreseen worthiness on the chosen ones such as faith, good works, or perseverance.]
YOUR DEFINITION IS WRONG. THIS IS PARTIAL. THE UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION OF CALVIN IS NOT ONLY UNTO SALVATION BUT ALSO UNTO DAMNATION FROM ETERNITY. HA, HA, HA... LIAR, LIAR, LIAR...
[* God did not elect them because they would be faithful, but in order that they might be so.
* God did not elect them because they would be holy, but in order that they might be so.
* God did not elect them because they would persevere, but in order that they would do so.]
THIS IS PARTIAL. THERE IS AN IMMUTABLE DIVINE DECREE IN ETERNITY IN WHICH OTHERS ARE DOOMED TO DAMNATION.
YOU ARE NOT PRESENTING THE DAMNATOR GOD OF CALVIN SO THAT YOU CAN FOOL PEOPLE. YOU ARE HIDING THE SATANIC POSITION OF YOUR BELOVED AND FAVORITE THEOLOGIAN.
[Do you agree with this or not?]
I REJECT CALVINISM AS A THEOLOGICAL SYSTEM. THE UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION IS ACCPTABLE TO THE CATHOLIC FAITH BUT AS OUR CATHOLIC THEOLOGY EXPLAINS IT. NOT THAT OF CALVIN.
THE POSITION OF CALVIN IS ESSENTIALLY DIFFERENT FROM STS. AUGUSTINE AND ST. THOMAS AQUINAS. STOP DECEIVING PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE SIMILAR OR IDENTICAL.
[Teka, diba ang pinaguusapan po natin ay ang DECREE regarding the Fall? Pinararatangan mo kasi si Calvin na tinuturo niyang ang FALL ay DIRECTLY CAUSED by God (bagay hindi mo pa napapatunayan).... pero ang sabi ni Calvin, nothing happens without God's order (i.e. direct intervention) or permission.]
ReplyDeleteHA, HA, HA... EXCUSE ME. YOU WERE TRYING TO PROVE TO ME THAT THE REPROBATION OF CALVIN IS THE SAME WITH THE REPROBATION OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS. WHEN I POINTED OUT TO YOU THAT THE GOD OF ST. THOMAS ONLY PERMITS SIN YOU CLAIMED THAT IT IS THE SAME FOR CALVIN. NOW, TO PROVE THAT YOU QUOTED CALVIN'S STATEMENT WITH THE WORD 'PERMISSION'. I COUNTERED THAT YOUR QUOTE IS MISLEADING... THAT IS INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY... YOU ARE TRYING TO PROVE THAT GOD IS ONLY PERMITTING SIN ON CALVIN'S DOCTRINE OF REPROBATION BUT YOU ARE QUOTING NOT FROM HIS CHAPTER ON REPROBATION, WHICH YOU PERSONALLY PRESENTED, BUT ON HIS CHAPTER ON CREATION.
TSK, TSK, TSK... DECEIVING... MANIPULATIVE... INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST.
[So where did Calvin said that THE FALL IS DIRECTLY CAUSED by God AND NOT permitted by Him?]
IT IS YOUR PROBLEM TO SHOW ME THAT CALVIN'S REPROBATION IS THE SAME WITH AQUINAS... THAT THE GOD OF CALVIN SIMPLY PERMITS SIN. THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM. HA, HA, HA...
BUT I HAVE PROVEN TO YOU THAT THE GOD OF CALVIN IS DAMNATOR... DAMNATOR... DAMNATOR. YOUR GOD IS SATANIC... EVIL FROM ETERNITY.
[Sorry, it's in Book I, xvi, 8.]
ReplyDeleteAPOLOGY ACCEPTED!
NOW, LET ME CHECK THAT PART:
CALVIN ENTITLED IT AS -
"CHAPTER 16.
THE WORLD, CREATED BY GOD, STILL CHERISHED AND PROTECTED BY HIM. EACH AND ALL OF ITS PARTS GOVERNED BY HIS PROVIDENCE."
HA, HA, HA... CONTRADICTORY AGAIN. IMAGINE GOD CREATED THE WORLD, FINE. THEN HE CHERISES AND PROTECTS IT. O HO, HO, HO... HE, HE, HE...
HOW CAN THE GOD OF CALVIN CHERISH AND PROTECT THE WORLD WHEN HE ALREADY DECREED TO DAMN AND TO DOOM SOULS FROM ETERNITY. THAT IS NOT CHERISING, ISN'T IT? THAT IS HATING. THERE IS ETERNAL HATE IN THE GOD OF CALVIN. HE, HE, HE...
LET ME CHECK FURTHER:
HA, HA, HA... ONCE AGAIN CALVIN ADMITTED THAT ST. AUGUSTINE RECOGNIZES THE ROLE OF THE FREE WILL OF MAN BUT AGAIN HE MADE A HOCUS-POCUS EXPLANATION TO DOWNPLAY IT:
”In short, AUGUSTINE everywhere teaches, that if anything is left to fortune, the world moves at random. And although he elsewhere declares (QuƦstionum, lib. 83). that all things are carried on, partly by THE FREE WILL OF MAN, and partly by THE PROVIDENCE OF GOD, he shortly after shows clearly enough that his meaning was, that men also are ruled by Providence, when he assumes it as a principle, that there cannot be a greater absurdity than to hold that anything is done without the ordination of God; because it would happen at random." [CALVIN Institute Book I, xvi, 8.]
HA, HA, HA... CALVIN KNOWS THAT ST. AUGUSTINE CATEGORICALLY AND EXPLICITLY SUPPORTS THE FREE WILL OF MAN, YET HE IS DISTORTING IT TO FIT HIS REJECTION OF FREE WILL. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO ME. HE, HE, HE... YOU ARE A TRUE BLOODED CALVINIST, FOLLOWER OF THE DAMNATOR GOD - THE ONE WHO DECREES EVIL FROM ETERNITY TO SOULS.
WOW. NOW I GOT YOUR QUOTATION AND BEHOLD LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND. THIS QUOTE WHICH YOU CLAIM TO BE OF CALVIN IS NOT OF CALVIN AT ALL BUT FROM ST. AUGUSTINE THE CATHOLIC. HA, HA, HA... LOOK AT THIS:
["...the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission..." [Institutes, I. vvi, 16]]
NOW COMPARE THAT WITH THIS:
"When he uses the term permission, the meaning which he attaches to it will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of all things, because nothing happens without his order or permission. He certainly does not figure God sitting idly in a watch-tower, when he chooses to permit anything. The will which he represents as interposing is, if I may so express it, active (actualis), and but for this could not be regarded as a cause." [[CALVIN Institute Book I, xvi, 8.]
LIAR, LIAR, LIAR... HA, HA, HA... INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY... SCHOLARLY DECEPTION.
I HOPE THE WRONG CITATION WAS NOT INTENTIONAL TO DECEIVE AND TO MISLED.
* IN THE ABOVE QUOTE, CALVIN SPEAKS OF ST. AUGUSTINE AND HIS THEOLOGY OF FREE WILL.
* CALVIN ATTESTS THAT ST. AUGUSTINE USED THE TERM 'PERMISSION'. AND THAT TERM IS CONNECTED WITH THE FREE WILL OF MAN ISSUE [WHICH IS CONNECTED TO PREDESTINATION-REPROBATION ISSUE].
* YOUR QUOTE IS NOT THAT OF CALVIN BUT OF ST. AUGUSTINE. IT WAS TAKEN FROM AUGUSTINE'S MAGNIFICENT BOOK DE TRINITATE [De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4].
HA, HA, HA... THERE IS NO DOCTRINE OF FREE WILL FOR CALVIN. NOTHING... NADA, NADA, NADA... NYET NYET. HA, HA, HA...
[ANg sabi ni Calvin, NOTHING HAPPENS without God's order or permission. Hindi ba kasama sa "NOTHING HAPPENS" yung The Fall, and every sins of mankind?]
ReplyDeleteIT REFERS TO CREATION. IT MEANS NOTHING EXIST IF NOT BECAUSE OF GOD OR CAUSED BY GOD. BUT IT DOES NOT TEACH THAT GOD DAMNED SOULS FROM ETERNITY. NO, NO, NO... HA, HA, HA... THE CREATOR-GOD IS NOT DAMNATOR. HA, HA, HA...
[And where did Calvin said that God DOES NOT permit the sinning of his creatures, but DIRECTLY CAUSES them to do so?]
I DON'T HAVE TO PROVE THAT. THE FACT THAT HE TEACHES THAT MAN HAS NO FREE WILL AND THAT HIS SATANIC GOD DOOMED TO DAMNATION BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FROM ALL AGES. THAT POSITION LEAVES NO ROOM FOR PERMISSION. HOW CAN THERE BE PERMISSION WHEN THERE IS NO FREEDOM. NO FREE WILL. HE, HE, HE... THE FREE WILL THAT YOU HAVE SHOWN ARE NOT OF CALVIN BUT OF LOMBARD AND AUGUSTINE. HA, HA, HA...
[And where did Calvin said that God DID NOT PERMIT the Fall, but DIRECTLY CAUSED it?]
GOD BY IMMUTABLE DECREE DOOMED OTHERS FOR ALL AGES... HA, HA, HA... IT IS YOUR DUTY TO COUNTER THAT AND SHOW YOUR BELOVED 'PERMISSION' IN CALVIN'S TEACHING. HA, HA, HA... NANGANGAMOTE KA NA. HA, HA, HA...
[Hanggang ngayon wala parin.]
HA, HA, HA... CALVIN'S DEMONIC-SATANIC DAMNATOR GOD LEAVES NO ROOM FOR PERMISSION. WHEN THERE IS ALREADY AN ETERNAL DECREE OF DAMNATION NO PERMISSION IS EXISTING. ETERNAL DECREE WAS MADE WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF MAN. ISN'T IT? HA, HA, HA... HA, HA, HA...
[Now you are the one deceiving me. It is true that God decreed the doom of the Reprobate, but where did it said that God is the DIRECT CAUSE of their sins?]
ReplyDeleteHA, HA, HA... THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ADMITTING THAT THE SATANIC GOD OF CALVIN DECREED THE DOOM OF THE REPROBATE.
[where did it said that God is the DIRECT CAUSE of their sins?]
BY IMPLICATION OF ETERNAL AND IMMUTABLE DECREE OF DAMNATION MADE BY CALVIN'S EVIL AND UNJUST GOD. HA, HA, HA...
ACTUALLY, WHAT YOU HAVE ACCEPTED IS MUCH WORSE. EVEN WITHOUT ACTUAL SIN THE EVIL GOD OF CALVIN SENDS SOULS TO DAMNATION. PRIOR TO THEIR EXISTENCE IN CREATION THE SOULS HAVE BEEN CONDEMNED TO EVERLASTING FIRE. WHAT A TERRIBLE INJUSTICE.
[Calvin said that nothing happens apart from God's order or permission. So God's Decree is carried out either by His order (direct intervention), or by permission.]
HA, HA, HA... YOU CARE PUTTING INTO CALVIN'S MOUTH THE POSITION OF LOMBARD AND AUGUSTINE AGAIN. OR USING THE PRINCIPLE USED IN CREATION FOR REPROBATION. HA, HA, HA...
WHEN ONE IS ETERNALLY DECREED AS DAMNED WHERE IS THE PERMISSION THERE? THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE. CONTRADICTORY.
[Now where did Calvin said that God carries out His Decree to Reprobate (including it's means) by DIRECT INTERVENTION and NOT by permission?]
I AM NOT NECESSITATED TO SHOW THAT BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN ME THAT GOD REPROBATE BY PERMISSION. I DO NOT NEGATE WHAT IS NON-EXISTENT. HA, HA, HA...
CALVIN... WORSHIPPER OF A DAMNATOR GOD.
[By the way,
ReplyDeleteSino po ba ang tinutukoy ni Calvin diyan? Sino yung "them"?]
SOME OF THE SOULS THAT HIS DAMNATOR GOD CRUELLY DOOMED TO DAMNATION BY IMMUTABLE AND ETERNALLY DECREE WHICH YOU PERSONALLY UPHOLD AND AGREED UPON AS GOOD.
****[ABE:
ReplyDelete[THEIR SUBSTANCE IS NOT EVIL BUT 'GOOD'. GOD CONCEIVED THEM AS GOOD, HE PLANNED THEM AS GOOD AND HE CREATED THEM GOOD.]****
[JR:
...wow., sounds Pelagian to me.]
HA, HA, HA... IT SOUNDS BIBLICAL TOO ME. GOD LOOKED AT WHAT HE CREATED AND SAW THEM AS GOOD! HA, HA, HA... BUT JOHN JOSEPH RAS SAW THEM AS EVIL. DON'T YOU?
GOD SAID: "LET US MAKE MAN ACCORDING TO OUR IMAGE AND LIKENESS". SO, IF SOME PEOPLE ARE MADE EVIL THEN SOME IMAGES AND LIKENESSES OF GOD ARE EVIL. HA, HA, HA...
[So nasan ang Doctrine of UNIVERSAL SALVATION dito?]
ReplyDeleteHERE IT IS IN SACRED SCRIPTURES:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
THE CHRISTIAN GOD REMOVES THE SIN OF THE WORLD BUT THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOUR GOD IS A DAMNATOR.
THE LORD JESUS SAVES THE ENTIRE WORLD AND GIVES LIGHT TO ALL MEN:
JohN 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOUR GOD, ON THE CONTRARY, ONLY GIVES LIGHT TO SOME BUT THE DARKNESS OF DOOM FOR OTHERS. THAT IS CONTRARY TO THE CHRISTIAN GOD. THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOUR GOD IS SATANIC.
ST. PAUL FURTHER DECLARES SALVATION FOR ALL:
1 Timothy 2:3-6 [Good News Bible]
1 Tim 2:3 This is good and it pleases God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4 WHO WANTS EVERYONE TO BE SAVED and to come to know the truth.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one who brings God and human beings together, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim 2:6 who gave himself to REDEEM the WHOLE HUMAN RACE. That was the proof at the right time that GOD WANTS EVERYONE TO BE SAVED.
THE GOD OF CALVIN WANTS SOME OF THOSE HUMANS TO BE DAMNED FROM ETERNITY AND DECREED IT IMMUTABLY. HOW EVIL AND CRUEL. HOW UNJUST AND UNLOVING. HOW DEMONIC. SO CONTRARY TO THE GOD OF PAUL, AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS.
NOW LET ME CHECK THIS QUOTE:
OBJECTION 1: It seems that God reprobates no man. For nobody reprobates what he loves. But God loves every man, according to (Wis. 11:25): "Thou lovest all things that are, and Thou hatest none of the things Thou hast made." Therefore God reprobates no man.
Reply to Objection 1: God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good---namely, eternal life---He is said to hate or reprobated them.
HA, HA, HA... WILL YOU PLEASE BE SO KIND SO AS TO PROVIDE THE PROPER CITATION SO THAT I CAN CHECK IT ACCORDINGLY.
ABE:
ReplyDelete[OBJECTION 1: It seems that God reprobates no man. For nobody reprobates what he loves. But God loves every man, according to (Wis. 11:25): "Thou lovest all things that are, and Thou hatest none of the things Thou hast made." Therefore God reprobates no man.
Reply to Objection 1: God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good---namely, eternal life---He is said to hate or reprobated them.
HA, HA, HA... WILL YOU PLEASE BE SO KIND SO AS TO PROVIDE THE PROPER CITATION SO THAT I CAN CHECK IT ACCORDINGLY.]
______________
JJR:
Binigay ko po na yan diba? Nasa Q[23], A[3] po yan. Ngayon saan po dyan sa REPLY ni THOMAS AQUINAS yung sinasabi niyong UNIVERSAL SALVATION?
I know very well that Thomas Aquinas is not a UNIVERSALIST, and also that Universalim is a dangerous heresy promoted by Origen.
So how can you reconcile your heresy with what Thomas Aquinas said in his reply:
"So far, therefore, as [Gpd] does not wish this particular good---namely, eternal life---He is said to hate or reprobated them."
[IN CALVIN'S THEOLOGY THEY ARE NOT SINNERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE FREE WILL. THEY ARE OBEDIENT CREATURES WHO SIMPLY FULFILLED THE DAMNATION PREPARED FOR THEM BY THE DAMNATOR GOD FROM ETERNITY. THE GOD OF CALVIN IS THE CAUSE OF SIN. HE IS THE DAMNATOR. THE CREATURES ARE NOT FREE.]
ReplyDeleteStrawman Fallacy!
Please read Institutes Book I, Chapter 18.
ABE:
ReplyDelete[HA, HA, HA... IT SOUNDS BIBLICAL TOO ME. GOD LOOKED AT WHAT HE CREATED AND SAW THEM AS GOOD! HA, HA, HA... BUT JOHN JOSEPH RAS SAW THEM AS EVIL. DON'T YOU?
GOD SAID: "LET US MAKE MAN ACCORDING TO OUR IMAGE AND LIKENESS". SO, IF SOME PEOPLE ARE MADE EVIL THEN SOME IMAGES AND LIKENESSES OF GOD ARE EVIL. HA, HA, HA...]
JR:
God created ADAM AND EVE in His likeness and Image (i.e. holiness and purity). When God looked at them after they were created, he regard as good.
BUT DID THEY REMAIN GOOD? No. We all know that Adan FELL unto Sin. And this FALL destroyed the image and likeness which they once possess. According to Augustine, they have become "sons of wrath". Their nature became SINFUL, and this nature is passed on from them to the next generations. Ephesians 2:3 tells us that we are "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind" (ESV).
PELAGIAN THE HERETIC didn't believe that. He said humans are basically good. Augustine on the other hand opposed that view by developing the view of ORIGINAL SIN.
Akala ko po ba bilib kayo kay San Agustin? Eh bakit hindi kayo naniniwalang MAN, (AFTER THE FALL), are not basically good, but SINFUL?
[JJR:]
ReplyDeleteYOU KNOW JOHN JOSEPH RAS, I ADMIRE YOUR CAPACITY TO LIE AND DECEIVE PEOPLE EVEN THOUGH THE EXCHANGE IS RECORDED AND IS BEING READ BY SO MANY PEOPLE. HE, HE, HE...
YOU CLAIMED THAT CALVIN HAS DOCTRINE OF FREE WILL AND THAT HE SIMPLY OPPOSES THE VIEWS OF HIS OPPONENTS YET WHEN I CHECKED THE SOURCES THAT YOU'VE GIVEN ME CALVIN CATEGORICALL REFUTES FREE WILL EXCEPT THAT OF ADAM PRIOR TO THE FALL.
* YOU DESPERATE LIAR. WHAT KIND OF FAITH AND CONSCIENCE YOU HAVE? IF YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE BEEN FOUND YOU SHOULD HAVE THE GRACE TO REMAIN SILENT. INSTEAD, YOU ARE TRYING TO SAVE FACE BY FOCUSING NOW FROM PREDESTINATION TO REPROBATION TO FREE WILL TO UNIVERSAL SALVATION.
* YOU OBSTINATE LIAR AND DECEIVER. HOW DARE YOU CLAIM THE STATEMENTS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGIANS LOMBARD AND AUGUSTINE AND PRETEND THEM AS CALVIN'S. SHAME, SHAME ON YOU.
[Binigay ko po na yan diba? Nasa Q[23], A[3] po yan.]
THIS IS ANOTHER MANIFESTATION OF YOUR IGNORANCE OF THE SUMMA. THE FIRST THING THAT YOU MUST PRESENT WHEN YOU ARE QUOTING IS THE BOOK, NOT THE QUESTION OR ARTICLE.
YOU HAVE PROVIDED THE QUESTION NUMBER AS WELL AS THE ARTICLE BUT YOU FAILED TO GIVE WHICH BOOK.
[Ngayon saan po dyan sa REPLY ni THOMAS AQUINAS yung sinasabi niyong UNIVERSAL SALVATION?]
HA, HA, HA... BALIW KA PALA E. THAT IS YOUR QUOTE THEN YOU ARE ASKING ME ABOUT YOUR QUOTE. OF COURSE YOU WILL CHOOSE THE QUOTE THAT DOESN'T STATE MY POSITION. HA, HA, HA... DESPERATE DECEIVER... YOU ARE ONLY SAVING FACE INSTEAD THE MORE YOU ARE PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR FAITH IN SHAME.
[I know very well that Thomas Aquinas is not a UNIVERSALIST, and also that Universalim is a dangerous heresy promoted by Origen.]
ReplyDeleteYOU ARE STUPID IN CALVIN'S THEOLOGY, MUCH MORE WITH AUGUSTINE AND AQUINAS NOW YOU ARE USING ORIGEN AS SCAPEGOAT. HA, HA, HA... DESPERATE DECEIVER AND LIAR.
THE DOCTRINE OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION REFERS TO THE FACT THAT GOD LOVES ALL MEN AND THAT JESUS DIED TO SAVE ALL AND THAT GOD WISHES TO SAVE ALL. THE HERESY COMES IN THE TEACHING THAT ALL WILL BE ACTUALLY SAVED. ST. THOMAS NEVER ADVOCATE THAT AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS THE ONE WHO DECLARED IT A HERESY AGAINST ORIGEN. HA, HA, HA...
WHEN A LIAR IS DESPERATE HE MULTIPLIES HIS LIES AND DECEPTION. TO THE POINT THAT HE IS CONVINCED ALREADY OF HIS OWN LIES. THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH YOU.
BALIW. THE TOPIC THAT ST. THOMAS IS EXPLAINING IN THAT PART OF THE SUMMA... [LET ME GIVE IT NA PARA HINDI KA NA MAHIRAPAN NG MABAWASAN ANG PROBLEMA MO AT KAHIHIYAN... SUMMA Ia, Q.23, Art. 3] IS REPROBATION AND NOT SALVATION. THUS, IT IS IDIOTIC FOR YOU TO ASK ME ABOUT THOMAS' POSITION ON SALVATION FROM THE ARTICLE DEDICATED TO REPROBATION. HA, HA, HA...
[So how can you reconcile your heresy with what Thomas Aquinas said in his reply:
"So far, therefore, as [Gpd] does not wish this particular good---namely, eternal life---He is said to hate or reprobated them."]
HA, HA, HA... LIAR LIAR LIAR.
HERE IS THE COMPLETE QUOTE FROM ST. THOMAS:
" Reply to Objection 1: God loves ALL men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good---namely, eternal life---He is said to hate or reprobated them." [ST. THOMAS AQUINAS Summa Theologia Book 1, Q.23, Art. 3]
First, GOD LOVES ALL MEN. THIS IS CONTRARY TO CALVIN'S POSITION THAT GOD ELECTED ONLY THOSE WHOM HE WANTS TO BE SAVED AND DOOMED OTHERS TO DAMNATION BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FROM ALL AGES. HA, HA, HA...
Second, THE GOD OF ST. THOMAS ONLY REPROBATES... HE PERMITS THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE... BUT FOR CALVIN HE DOES NOT PERMIT... HE DOOMED TO DAMNATION BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FROM ETERNITY.
THE GOD OF CALVIN AND YOUR GOD HAS NO LOVE FOR "ALL" MEN. HE ALREADY DOOMED AND DAMNED FROM ETERNITY SOULS EVEN BEFORE THEY HAVE COMMITTED THEIR SINS.
IMAGINE PRIOR TO SIN YOUR SATANIC AND HEARTLESS GOD WISHES SOULS TO BE DAMNED. THIS IS NOT THE BIBLICAL GOD:
1 Timothy 2:3-6 [Good News Bible]
1 Tim 2:3 This is good and it pleases God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4 WHO WANTS EVERYONE TO BE SAVED and to come to know the truth.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one who brings God and human beings together, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim 2:6 who gave himself to REDEEM the WHOLE HUMAN RACE. That was the proof at the right time that GOD WANTS EVERYONE TO BE SAVED.
HOW DARE YOU CALL ME HERETIC? YOU ARE THE SUPPORTER OF CALVIN THE HERETIC, WHO PRETENDS TO BE FOLLOWING AUGUSTINE YET HAVE VIOLATED THE WRITINGS OF AUGUSTINE TO DENY FREE-WILL AND TEACH A GOD THAT IS A DAMNATOR.
LIAR, LIAR, LIAR... DECEIVER.
NOW TO FUTHER CHECK THE POSITION OF AQUINAS WHO UPHOLD FREE WILL CONTRARY TO THAT OF CALVIN WHO REJECTS IT:
"But guilt proceeds from THE FREE-WILL of the person who is reprobated and deserted by grace. In this way, the word of the prophet is true---namely, "Destruction is thy own, O Israel." [ST. THOMAS AQUINAS Summa Theologia Book 1, Q.23, Art. 3 Reply to Objection 2]
HERE IS THE REPLY TO OBJECTION 3:
Reply to Objection 3:
"Whence, although anyone reprobated by God cannot acquire grace, nevertheless that he falls into this or that particular sin comes from the use of his FREE WILL. Hence it is rightly imputed to him as guilt."
BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT. THOMAS AQUINAS UPHELD FREE WILL AND CALVIN REJECTED FREE WILL. THUS, YOU ARE LYING THROUGH YOUR TEETH.
LIAR, LIAR, LIAR... YOU ARE SHAMELSS IN YOUR LIES.
****[IN CALVIN'S THEOLOGY THEY ARE NOT SINNERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE FREE WILL. THEY ARE OBEDIENT CREATURES WHO SIMPLY FULFILLED THE DAMNATION PREPARED FOR THEM BY THE DAMNATOR GOD FROM ETERNITY. THE GOD OF CALVIN IS THE CAUSE OF SIN. HE IS THE DAMNATOR. THE CREATURES ARE NOT FREE.]*****
ReplyDelete[Strawman Fallacy!
Please read Institutes Book I, Chapter 18]
HA, HA, HA... ONCE AGAIN, THE MORE YOU ARE PUTTING YOURSELF AND YOUR BELOVED HERETIC CALVIN IN SHAME. HERE IS THE TITLE OF THAT CHAPTER THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN:
"CHAPTER 18.
THE INSTRUMENTALITY OF THE WICKED EMPLOYED BY GOD, WHILE HE CONTINUES FREE FROM EVERY TAINT"
HE, HE, HE... SO FAR SO GOOD FOR YOU. NOW, THE MAIN TTTLE FOR HIS ART. 4 OF THAT SAME CHAPTER SAYS:
"4. Objection, that God is the author of sin, refuted by examples. Augustine’s answer and admonition."
HA, HA, HA... THE TITLE ITSELF SHOWS THE WEAKNESS OF CALVIN'S ALIBI AND HIS DECEIVING ACT LIKE WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
FIRST, HE REJECTED FREE WILL IN HUMANITY. CONSEQUENTLY EVERY HUMAN PERSON IS NOT FREE TO ACT OR NOT TO ACT AGAINST THE WILL OF GOD OR TO CHOOSE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL.
SECOND, THE SALVATION OF THE ELECT IS ALREADY DETERMINED BY GOD FOR CALVIN WHILE HE DOOMED TO DAMNATION THE REST OF HUMANITY BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FROM ALL AGES.
SO, THE EVIL ACTS OF THESE SOULS WHO ARE DAMNED BY YOUR DAMNATOR GOD IS NOT ROOTED IN THEIR FREEDOM OR FREE WILL BUT ON THEIR SLAVED-FATE... THEIR GOD-DAMNED DOOMED. HA, HA, HA...
NOW, IN THIS CHAPTER CALVIN TRIES TO AVOID HIS SHAME BY LOOKING AT THE BIBLICAL EXAMPLES OF GOD IN THE BIBLE BLAMING MEN FOR THEIR SINS. BUT HIS POSITIONS ARE CONTRADICTORY. IN THE BIBLE, MAN IS BLAMED BY GOD FOR HIS SINS BECAUSE THE HUMAN PERSONS EVEN AFTER THE FALL ARE FREE TO CHOOSE... THE BIBLE DIDN'T REMOVED FREE WILL EVEN IN A FALLEN MAN:
Deuteronomy 30:15-18 (King James Version)
15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
HA, HA, HA... GOD IS GIVING CHOICES: THE WAY OF LIFE AND THE WAY OF DEATH. BLESSINGS FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE LIFE AND PUNISHMENTS FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO DISOBEY. THEREFORE, CALVIN IS WRONG TO TEACH THAT FREE-WILL IS REMOVED FROM MAN AFTER THE FALL. NO, NO, NO...
THIRD, CALVIN RELIED ONLY ON ST. AUGUSTINE TO REFUTE THE ACCUSATIONS.
BUT, HERE HE IS A DECEIVER LIKE YOU:
ST. AUGUSTINE HAS A MORAL AND LOGICAL AND BIBLICAL GROUND TO DENY SIN TO GOD BECAUSE ST. AUGUSTINE UPHELD THE FREE-WILL OF MEN LIKE ST. THOMAS AQUINAS. THUS, MAN BEING FREE TO DO GOOD OR EVIL, TO CHOOSE HIS COURSE OF LIFE SO, SIN AND GUILT SHALL BE ATTRIBUTED TO MEN IN THE BIBLE AND IN THE AUGUSTINIAN AND THOMISTIC THEOLOGY.
IN ORDER TO ESCAPE HIS SHAME CALVIN HID HIMSELF IN THE CLOAK OF ST. AUGUSTINE YET HE DIVERTED FROM ST. AUGUSTINE IN HIS CONCLUSION ON FREE-WILL. THUS, CALVIN'S THEOLOGY IS CONTRADICTORY AND SHALLOW.
STILL, HE FAILED TO PROVE BY HIS OWN SYSTEM OF THOUGHT, BY HIS OWN REASONING THAT HIS GOD - THE DAMNATOR GOD - THE GOD WHO REMOVED FREE WILL FROM MEN AFTER THE FALL, IS EXCUSED FROM THE STAIN OF SIN.
HOW CAN HE BE EXCUSED? THE EVIL CREATURES SIMPLY FOLLOWED WHAT HE DECREED IMMUTABLY FOR ALL AGES. HA, HA, HA...
THE GOD OF CALVIN IS AN EVIL GOD AND HIS REASONING CONTRADICTORY.
[JJR: God created ADAM AND EVE in His likeness and Image (i.e. holiness and purity). When God looked at them after they were created, he regard as good.]
ReplyDeleteOF COURSE, GOD CREATED THEM AS GOOD AS GENESIS 1 REPEATEDLY DECLARED.
BUT, HOW CAN YOU RECONCILE THAT WITH YOUR AND CALVIN'S DAMNATOR GOD WHO DOOMED TO DAMNATION THE SOULS BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES?
IF GOD CREATED SOME MEN FOR SALVATION AND SOME FOR DAMNATION THEN "NOT ALL" HAVE BEEN CREATED AS GOOD. THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE BY NATURE, BY DESIGN, BY PROVIDENCE AND BY ETERNAL DECREE "EVIL"!!!
HOW WILL YOU RECONCILE THAT? THEY DO NOT JIBE MR. DECEIVER, THEY DO NOT FIT AT ALL. IF YOU WILL FOLLOW THE THEOLOGICAL SYSTEM OF CALVIN, IT WILL NOT FIT THE STATEMENT OF SCRIPTURES.
[BUT DID THEY REMAIN GOOD? No.]
THEY ARE TAINTED BY SIN BUT THERE IS STILL GOOD IN THEM. THE PRESENCE OF SIN IS NOT TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE. THERE IS STILL GOODNESS AND LOVE IN THE WORLD AND IN CREATION AND IN THE HUMAN PERSON. EVEN AMONG SINNERS THERE ARE GOODNESS AND LOVE. EVEN IN DOGS AND IN CHICKEN THERE ARE GOODNESS, HOW MUCH MORE THE HUMAN PERSONS. HA, HA, HA...
THE EXISTENCE OF LIFE ITSELF IN THE HUMAN PERSON IS A BLESSING AND A 'GOOD' FROM GOD. OUR INTELLECT AND TALENTS ARE PART OF THE GOOD THAT REMAIN IN US DESPITE THE WEAKNESS OF SIN THAT CORRUPTED OUR NATURE.
[We all know that Adan FELL unto Sin.]
ADAM FELL INTO SIN BUT IT DOESN'T SAY THAT HE BECAME TOTALLY EVIL. ONLY THE DEMON IS SPOKEN OF THAT WAY IN THE BIBLE.
[And this FALL destroyed the image and likeness which they once possess.]
HA, HA, HA... WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE? WHERE IS IT STATED IN THE BIBLE THAT THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD HAVE BEEN REMOVED IN MAN BECAUSE OF SIN? CHAPTER AND VERSE PLEASE.
YOUR STATEMENT IS VERY GRAVE. THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD IS 'DESTROYED'. SO IN WHOSE IMAGE AND LIKENESS YOU ARE NOW? IN SATAN'S IMAGE AND LIKENESS? HA, HA, HA...
I SAY IT IS NOT DESTROYED BUT CORRUPTED BY SIN.
[According to Augustine, they have become "sons of wrath". Their nature became SINFUL, and this nature is passed on from them to the next generations.]
ReplyDeleteWHERE DID ST. AUGUSTINE SAY THAT? CITATION PLEASE. HA, HA, HA...
THOMAS AQUINAS AND AUGUSTINE TEACH THAT THE HUMAN PERSON BEARS THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD. OUR BEING IMAGE IS PROVEN BY THE FACT THAT WE HAVE A MIND, i.e., RATIONALITY. ST. THOMAS EVEN SAYS THAT FOR AUGUSTINE THE HUMAN PERSON IS THE IMAGE OF THE TRINITY AS ATTESTED BY HIS MIND, KNOWLEDGE AND LOVE:
"Reply to Objection 1: Our being bears the image of God so far as if is proper to us, and excels that of the other animals, that is to say, in so far as we are endowed with a mind. Therefore, this trinity is the same as that which Augustine mentions (De Trin. ix, 4), and which consists in mind, knowledge, and love." [THOMAS AQUINAS, Summa Theologia Book Ia, Q.93, Art.7]
FURTHER,
"Wherefore, Augustine says (De Trin. xiv, 4): "If the rational soul is made to the image of God in the sense that it can make use of reason and intellect to understand and consider God, then the image of God was in the soul from the beginning of its existence." [THOMAS AQUINAS, Summa Theologia Book Ia, Q.93, Art.7 Reply to Objection 4 last sentence]
[Ephesians 2:3 tells us that we are "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind" (ESV).]
HA, HA, HA... I THINK YOUR QUOTE IS VERY PARTIAL. BECAUSE IT STATES THERE THAT EVEN WHEN WE WERE SINNERS GOD LOVED US BY HIS GREAT MERCY:
Ephesians 2:1-5 (English Standard Version)
1(A) And you were(B) dead in the trespasses and sins 2(C) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following(D) the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in(E) the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in(F) the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and(G) were by nature(H) children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But[b] God, being(I) rich in mercy,(J) because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even(K) when we were dead in our trespasses,(L) made us alive together with Christ—(M) by grace you have been saved—
HA, HA, HA... THE GOD OF LOVE AND MERCY IS GENEROUS AND KIND. HE IS NOT THE DAMNATOR GOD OF CALVIN AND YOUR CHURCH WHO HAS DOOMED SOULS TO DAMNATION BY IMMUTABLE DECREE FOR ALL AGES.
HA, HA, HA... YOU AND CALVIN OVER EMPHASIZED THE POWER OF SIN BUT HAVE FORGOTTEN THE POWER OF GRACE. WHERE SIN ABOUNDS GRACE ABOUNDS ALL MORE.
[PELAGIAN THE HERETIC didn't believe that. He said humans are basically good.]
ReplyDeleteHA, HA, HA... PELAGIAN THE HERETIC... HA, HA, HA... DO YOU MEAN PELAGIUS?
[Augustine on the other hand opposed that view by developing the view of ORIGINAL SIN.]
THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS A CATHOLIC DOGMA AND BECAUSE OF THAT ST. AUGUSTINE AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BAPTIZES INFANTS WHICH YOU OPPOSES. HA, HA, HA... AFTER RIDING AT THE NAMES OF STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS NOW YOU WANT TO RIDE AT THE CATHOLIC DOGMA OF ORIGINAL SIN JUST TO LESSEN YOUR SHAME. HA, HA, HA... YOU ARE TOO CALLOUS YOU KNOW. YOU ARE SHAMELESS IN YOUR ALIBIS. JUST TO SAVE FACE YOU ARE WILLING TO SWALLOW OUR DOGMAS... NOW YOU KNOW THAT YOUR CALVINISM CAN'T BEAR YOU OUT...
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND ST. AUGUSTINE ARE CATEGORICAL IN TEACHING ORIGINAL SIN BUT AUGUSTINE NEVER TAUGHT THAT BECAUSE OF ORIGINAL SIN THE FREE WILL OF MEN HAVE BEEN DESTROYED OR REMOVED. HA, HA, HA... IT IS YOU AND CALVIN THE HERETIC WHO DESTROYED FREE WILL BY REMOVING IT FROM THE DIGNITY OF MAN.
STS. AUGUSTINE AND THOMAS AQUINAS STEADFASTLY TAUGHT THAT FREE WILL IS ROOTED IN OUR HUMAN RATIONALITY... IN THE MIND. THE FACT THAT MAN HAS THE INTELLECTUAL FACULTY THEN HE HAS A FREE WILL. HE CAN CHOOSE BETWEEN GOOD AND BAD. BUT OF COURSE, DUE TO THE EXISTENCE OF SIN OUR HUMAN NATURE IS CORRUPTED, TAINTED BY SIN THEN MAN NEEDS THE GRACE OF GOD.
[Akala ko po ba bilib kayo kay San Agustin? Eh bakit hindi kayo naniniwalang MAN, (AFTER THE FALL), are not basically good, but SINFUL?]
HA, HA, HA... ILLOGICAL.
THE CONTRARY OF GOOD IS EVIL, NOT SINFUL. THE CONTRARY OF SINFUL IS SINLESS.
BY BEING SINFUL MAN IS NO LONGER SINLESS BUT SINCE HE IS NOT TOTALLY EVIL MAN IS STILL HAVING SOME GOOD. SUCH AS HIS RATIONALITY WHEREIN HE CAN THINK AND DECIDE. THERE RESIDES HIS FREE WILL BY WHICH HE CAN CHOOSE BETWEEN WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG, GOOD OR EVIL.
YOU KNOW YOU ARE A VERY GOOD DECEIVER AND LIAR. TO THE POINT THAT YOU ARE LYING TO YOURSELF. FIRST, YOU TRIED TO ARGUE THAT CALVIN HAS A TEACHING OF FREE WILL. THAT WHAT HE WAS REJECTING WAS THE WRONG OPINIONS OF FREE WILL BY HIS OPPONENTS. NOW... NOW... NOW... YOU ARE ALREADY STANDING ON YOUR GROUND IN DENYING FREE WILL IN MAN. HA, HA, HA...
YOU ARE BEING CORRUPTED BY YOUR OWN LIES, DECEPTIONS AND DISTORTIONS TO THE POINT THAT YOUR WILL IS NO LONGER FREE TO RECOGNIZE WHICH IS WHICH. HA, HA, HA...
I PITY YOU... YOU HAVE DROWNED IN YOUR OWN LIES.
Mark Santos: "father, question lang po. masama po bang magjakol? ang hirap po kasing pigilan at saan po ito mababasa sa bible. salamat"
ReplyDeleteDear Mark, ang issue ng masturbation ay isa sa mga topic na hindi directang sinasagot ng Biblia. Subalit kung ating titignan ang mga basic moral principles ng Banal na Kasulatan makikita natin na ito ay sumasalungat sa aral ng Panginoong Dios.
1. Ito ay labag sa kabanalan ng ating isip sapagkat ang Masturbation ay may kaakibat na paggamit ng malalaswang imahinasyon. Ang isang Cristiano ay dapat na may malinis na puso at isip.
2. Ito ay labag sa kabanalan ng ating mga katawan na Templo ng Dios kung saan nananahan ang Espiritu Santo [1 Corinthians 3:16]. At dahil dito hindi natin ito dapat abusin para sa masamang pita ng laman kung saan ginagamit ang ating katawan at sexualidad hindi ayon sa kasagraduhan ng kasal kundi sa pansariling pagpaparaos lamang.
3. Ang pagtatapon ng Seed of Life ay kasalanan sa Dios. Ang Semilya o ang Seed of Life ay binigay ng Dios sa atin para gamitin sa asawa upang bumuo ng buhay. Dapat bukas tayo sa buhay na regalo ng Dios at hindi ito itatapon lamang:
Gen 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
hi father, i can't find any explanation in your blog about Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. naguguluhan lang po ako. if there is a previous explanation na can you please post the link? ibig ba sabihin niyo pag hindi ka catholic ay sa impyerno ang punta mo? kahit na yung mga batang walang kamalay malay sa reliyon mapupunta din sa impyerno dahil hindi sila catholic? o baka naman merong deeper meaning itong Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus na hindi ko nalalaman?
ReplyDeleteHINDI KA SIGURO NAGHANAP NG MABUTI KAYA HINDI MO NAKITA ANG EXPLANATION. NAKALAGAY NA NGA SA LISTAHAN NG TOPIC LABELS. MALINAW AT NAKALISTA. NEXT TIME MAGHANAP NG MABUTI. ITO ANG LINK:
ReplyDeletehttp://thesplendorofthechurch.blogspot.com/search/label/Extra-Ecclesiam%20Nulla%20Salus-Outside%20the%20Church%20No%20Salvation
YUNG MGA WALANG MALAY AY EXCUSE AT HINDI IMPIERNO AGAD ANG PUNTA LIBAN NA LANG KUNG MAGING MASAMA SILA. BETTER READ THE EXPLANATIONS.
ANG TANONG MO AY DAPAT MONG IAKUSA SA MGA IGLESIA NI MANALO NA NAGSASABI NA SILA ANG ANG MALILIGTAS AT SA MGA BORN AGAIN NA GAYON DIN ANG TURO.