Lucas 1:28 "At pumasok siya sa kinaroroonan niya, at sinabi, Magalak ka, ikaw na totoong pinakamamahal, ang Panginoon ay sumasa iyo." Anonymous said...
Fr. Abe,
Totoo po ba yung sinasabe ng ibang Christian denominations and sects na nilalabag ng mga Catholic prayers like rosary and novena yung instructions po sa Matthew 6:7-8?
February 15, 2010 5:56 PM
Fr. Abe, CRS said...
[Totoo po ba yung sinasabe ng ibang Christian denominations and sects na nilalabag ng mga Catholic prayers like rosary and novena yung instructions po sa Matthew 6:7-8?]
Siempre HINDE.
Hindi natin nilalabag ang Matthew 6:7-8 dahil ang ating mga dasal sa Iglesia Catolica ay MAKABULUHANG PAULIT-ULIT at hindi WALANG KABULUHANG PAULIT-ULIT na siyang pinagbabawal ng Matthew 6:7-8. Tignan mong mabuti:
Mateo 6:7-8 At sa pananalangin ninyo ay huwag ninyong gamitin ang WALANG KABULUHANG PAULIT ULIT, na gaya ng ginagawa ng mga Gentil: sapagka't iniisip nilang dahil sa kanilang maraming kasasalita ay didinggin sila. Huwag nga kayong magsigaya sa kanila: sapagka't talastas ng inyong Ama ang mga bagay na inyong kinakailangan, bago ninyo hingin sa kaniya.
TINANGGAL NG MGA ANTI CATHOLICS ANG ADJECTIVE NA 'VAIN' OR 'WALANG KABULUHAN' DUON SA REPETITIOUS PRAYER para lumabas na nilalabag natin ang talata. ITO AY ISANG GARAPALANG PANLOLOKO SA MGA KATOLIKO NA HINDI MAGALING GUMAMIT NG LOGICAL ANALYSIS.
Ang ating mga Dasal sa Rosary ay mga Biblical Prayers dahil ang mga ito ay hinalaw sa Biblia o dili kaya ay naka-base sa mga aral ng Biblia tulad ng...
1. OUR FATHER [Mateo 6:9-13]
2. HAIL MARY [Lucas 1:28/ 1:38]
3. THE CREED which is the summary of the major tenets of Salvation History contained in the Bible.
Sa Banal na Kasulatan may mga halimbawa ng mga repetitious prayers na hindi kinukondena ng Dios:
1. Tulad ng Psalmo 136 kung saan paulit-ulit na sinasabi "For His love endures forever."
Psalm 136 (New International Version)
1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good.
His love endures forever.
2 Give thanks to the God of gods.
His love endures forever.
3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords:
His love endures forever.
4 to him who alone does great wonders,
His love endures forever.
5 who by his understanding made the heavens,
His love endures forever.
6 who spread out the earth upon the waters,
His love endures forever.
7 who made the great lights—
His love endures forever.
8 the sun to govern the day,
His love endures forever.
9 the moon and stars to govern the night;
His love endures forever.
10 to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt
His love endures forever.
11 and brought Israel out from among them
His love endures forever.
12 with a mighty hand and outstretched arm;
His love endures forever.
13 to him who divided the Red Sea [a] asunder
His love endures forever.
14 and brought Israel through the midst of it,
His love endures forever.
15 but swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea;
His love endures forever.
16 to him who led his people through the desert,
His love endures forever.
17 who struck down great kings,
His love endures forever.
18 and killed mighty kings—
His love endures forever.
19 Sihon king of the Amorites
His love endures forever.
20 and Og king of Bashan—
His love endures forever.
21 and gave their land as an inheritance,
His love endures forever.
22 an inheritance to his servant Israel;
His love endures forever.
23 to the One who remembered us in our low estate
His love endures forever.
24 and freed us from our enemies,
His love endures forever.
25 and who gives food to every creature.
His love endures forever.
26 Give thanks to the God of heaven.
His love endures forever.
2. Apocalipsis 4:8 kung saan ang mga anghel at mga banal sa langit ay paulit-ulit na nananalangin:
Rev 4:8 At ang apat na nilalang na buhay, na may anim na pakpak bawa't isa sa kanila, ay mga puno ng mata sa palibot at sa loob; at sila'y walang pahinga araw at gabi, na nagsasabi, Banal, banal, banal, ang Panginoong Dios, ang Makapangyarihan sa lahat, na nabuhay at nabubuhay at siyang darating.
AYAN. TIGNAN MO. WALANG PAHINGA PA YAN ARAW AT GABI NA PAULIT-ULIT NA YON ANG SINASABI. PERO HINDI NAGAGALIT ANG DIOS.
Kung magsalita ang mga Born Again sa atin ay parang kala mo malilinis sila pagdating sa paulit-ulit na panalangin. Ang mga prayers nga nila ay paulit ulit na may nagsasalita ng Amen at Alleluia. Hindi ba paulit-ulit din yon?
Kaya wag kang magpapaniwala sa mga iyan.
March 10, 2010 9:39 AM
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![ST. JEROME EMILIANI [1486-1537]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6dKQTchkJaA/R0lo013dyBI/AAAAAAAAB_4/XzUAPDESwwQ/s1600/St.+Jerome+in+prayer,+small_1.jpg)
thanks po Fr. Abe for answering my question!! Naliwanagan na po ako, thank you very much po
ReplyDeleteWelcome Brother. Salamat sa Dios at nabasa mo ang aking kasagutan. Pasensya ka na kasi late na ang reply ko. Naging very busy kasi e. Matindi ang naging mga debate ko sa mga ADD at mga tulisang Born-Again. Siguro naman nabasa mo ang aking pakikipagtalastasan sa kanila.
ReplyDeleteFor further study, you may want to check:
ReplyDeletehttp://bromarwilnllasos.blogspot.com/search/label/Holy%20Rosary?updated-max=2009-10-19T01%3A03%3A00-07%3A00&max-results=20
Thank you Bro. Mars. Please visit also the Blog of Bro. Mars. You will learn a lot more there.
ReplyDeleteFr Abe:
ReplyDeleteMay nahanap pa po akong mga paulit-ulit na dasal sa Bible. Heto po:
Dan 3:52-90; Ps 135:19-21; Ps 136:1-26; Ps 150: 1-6; Ps 118:-4; Ps 148:1-6
Thanks Fr. More power.
Opo Fr. Abe, nainitindihan ko po, ang galing nga po ng mga arguments nyo sa kanila eh, thanks din po Bro. Mars sa blog nyo, tiyak madami po akong matutunan...
ReplyDeleteThank you dear Anonymous for the Biblical passages.
ReplyDeleteask ko lang po sana.bakit parang walang updates sa blog ni bro. marwil llasos? salamat po
ReplyDeleteDear Rodel,
ReplyDeleteBro. Mars is very preoccupied now. Please let us join him in praying for his sister who is sick. May the Lord grant her healing.
ah, ok po..salamat po.. at sana nga po ay gumaling na ang kapatid nya...
ReplyDeletebakit po ba kayo sumasamba sa mga rebolto mga larawan? dba sinasamba lahat nang mga catholiko ang larawan at rebolto? bakit nyo binibinta ang mga rebolto at larawan? kabastosan nayan sa panginoon? ung mga santo binibinta kahit san lugar,mismo ang catholic church nagbibinta. di poba bawal yun sa biblia?
ReplyDeletebawal magsamba sa mga larawan at sa rebolto na inukit sa bato na ginawa lng ng tao..masama yun
mismo sa simbahan pa nagmumula ang mga utos at ang mga totoong kristiyano noon ay walang awang pinagpapatay nang mga paganong yan.. sana father maliwanagan ako or kaya kayong mga lahat na father..kung ano ang inuutos sa katas taasan susundin nman kahit mali..hoy gcing..
bakit binigyagan nyo ang mga bata na wala pa naman alam about bible, God
Dear Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteAng iyong mga katanungan ay nasagot na sa Blog na ito. Please read the following posts:
http://thesplendorofthechurch.blogspot.com/2010/01/pagsamba-sa-rebulto.html
http://thesplendorofthechurch.blogspot.com/2009/12/young-catholic-apologist-named-bro.html
http://thesplendorofthechurch.blogspot.com/2009/11/add-inquires-about-catholic-practice-of.html
http://thesplendorofthechurch.blogspot.com/2009/10/pakikipagtalastasan-sa-isang-anti.html
Dyan po sila magbasa ng mga sagot at maglagay ng nararapat na katanungan.
naku!
ReplyDeletefather o hanggang verse 30 lang pala ang daniel sa protestant bibles at magkaiba pa yung ibang verses!
pano na yan, scripture alone pa naman sila?
kakalungkot naman :,C
Yes, passionately papist. Marami silang ibinawas sa Biblia. Kawawa talaga.
ReplyDeleteok po itong site nyo father, ngunit may mga article po ba kayo kung pano idefend ang iglesia sa mga orthodox? kumpara po sa mga protestants, mas mahirap kadebate mga orthodox, palibhasa kamukang kamuka ito ng katolisismo eh
ReplyDeleteThank you Passionately Papist.
ReplyDeleteWala pa akong ganong apologetic materials against Orthodox but recently I had a heated exchange with their deacon here in the Philippines. I will post now. You can see it later.
God bless you.
When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion. - Robert M. Pirsig
ReplyDeleteWhen fools pretend to be sane they are called ATHEISTS AND AGNOSTICS.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous has left a new comment on your post "PANALANGING PAULIT-ULIT, LABAG BA SA BIBLIA?":
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said…
may i comment on here, i hope it will posted and not be ingnored. heres my comment:
[Comments are welcome here as long as they are respectful and are made in the spirit of truth. Your comments are not ignored.]
Anonymous said…
First and foremost, we should know the meaning of the word “prayer/s” in the Bible. The Bible says:
(Php 4:6) Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
(Php 4:7) And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
So, prayers according to St. Paul is a REQUEST to God with thanksgiving. Jesus says to his apostles, whatever they will ask to God in his (Jesus) name, God will give it to them.
[Prayer of REQUEST or SUPPLICATION is only one type or kind of prayer in the Bible. And there are many types of prayer though. So your view of prayer is severely limited to one kind only and doesn’t do justice to all the others taught in the Bible. I am afraid that your view of prayer – as one merely of request or supplication – is very transactional. While in itself is not wrong, as in fact it too is taught in the Bible, singular emphasis on it results in lopsided relationship with God. You pray because you want something from Him. The focus is more on what you get from that relationship – and not what you give.]
Anonymous said…
ReplyDelete(Joh 16:23) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
(Joh 16:24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
To summarized, prayer is a request and asking something to God with thanksgiving, in Jesus name.
[The Bible verses you cited are all beautiful and the Catholic Church fulfills them even long before your new church was established. However, your summary that prayer is only request and asking something from God is incomplete and inaccurate. That is a very self-centered, if not selfish, view. It has to be balanced by other forms of prayer taught by the Bible. Adoration, praise, thanksgiving, meditation and contemplation. The Catholic Church practices all these forms. It seems that your church has not taught you these gauging from your limited perspective on prayer].
Anonymous said…
ReplyDeleteJesus taught us how to pray.
(Mat 6:9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
(Mat 6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
(Mat 6:11) Give us this day our daily bread.
(Mat 6:12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
(Mat 6:13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
[The Catholic Church, as well as early Christians (the Didache) pray the Our Father often. It is known as the Lord’s prayer. We pray it because the Lord commands us in Matthew 6:9, “Let this then be your prayer: Our Father in heaven …” (Bible in Basic English).]
Anonymous said...
Above manner, I have not seen any repetition. But if you’re going to pray this per se, same and same regardless of cases, I believe that is repetition.
[As you said it rightly, that is just your belief. And so what if that is repetition? Those are the words of the Lord Jesus. Can we improve on the words of the Savior Himself? I don’t think so. The Lord’s Prayer is a thoroughly complete form of prayer because it possesses all kinds – adoration, praise, thanksgiving, supplication, etc.
It’s not the repetition of the words that counts. It’s not how we repeat it that matters. It’s how we MEAN it that is important. Each time it is prayed, regardless of the cases, it acquires a different meaning because, being the inspired words of the Lord, it’s richness is inexhaustible.
Jesus is our master in prayer, our teacher. When He gave us that prayer, we take His word for it. We don’t presume to know better than Him and certainly we are never arrogant to claim that we can have a better version of His words. We cannot improve on the words of Our Savior.]
Anonymous said…
ReplyDeleteHail Mary and The Creed is not a prayer but story telling.
[Again, your limited view of prayer is manifest. What’s wrong with story-telling? You gotta produce a verse that prohibits it. Mind you, story-telling is another form of prayer. Don’t you think so? If I pray and tell God what happened to me during the day, am I not telling Him a story? If I reveal to God in prayer my hurts and frustrations and tell Him how it went, would it not be telling a story? Would God begrudge me if I tell Him stories? He is a loving Father and He definitely delights in the stories of His children. I wonder why your pastors don’t teach you that. They are shortchanging you.
Let’s take the Hail Mary. You call it story-telling? That’s an inaccurate description, borne perhaps by your anti-Catholic prejudice and bias. Nevertheless, let me tell you something about Hail Mary.
The Hail Mary consists of two parts. The first part is a recitation of Scripture. “Hail [Mary], full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Lk. 1:28). “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb [Jesus]” (Lk. 1:42). These are inspired words of Scripture. When we recite it, we ponder on these words found in the Word of God. Is recitation and meditation of the Word of God outlawed in your Church? If not, why then condemn the Hail Mary, especially its first part ?
The second part of the Hail Mary is merely asking Mary to pray for us. That is a request for intercessory prayer. Is intercessory prayer banned by the Bible? I don’t think so.
So, there you have the Hail Mary! Far from story-telling, it is a recitation and meditation of God’s Holy Word and a request for Mary, an eminent Christian, to pray for us – an intercessory prayer.
Continuation...
ReplyDelete[What about the Creed? It is not storytelling but our profession of Faith, as St. Paul instructs us, “let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering” (Heb. 10:23). With the Creed, Catholics are in “one faith” in which with “the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:10). St. Jude tells us to “contend for the faith that is once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). The faith that is once and for all delivered to the saints may be found in the Apostles Creed.
The Creed has it’s counterpart in the Shema of the Old Testament People of God: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord Our God is one Lord” (Dt. 6:4). Deuteronomy 26 informs us that the Lord God instructed the Israelites that when they speak to Him, they should narrate the wondrous works He has done for them (Dt. 26:5-9). Read the verse for yourself. Then you’d realize that that’s story-telling precisely.
Christians on the other hand recite the twelve articles of their Faith contained in the Apostle’s Creed. One of the earliest creedal formulations is found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 which now forms part of the Apostle’s Creed. All the twelve articles of faith found in the Creed are Biblical. They are the synopsis of what the New Testament people of God believe and proclaim in which “we all come in the unity of the faith” (Eph. 4:13).]
Anonymous said…
ReplyDeleteThe worst is, members of catholic give the burden to Mary to pray for them now and forever. It is our obligation to pray to God.
[I want to pity you for your gross ignorance of Scripture here. Is it ever a burden to pray? Is that what you are taught in your church? God forbid! Your church is anti-Biblical.
It is never a burden to pray. Our Christian life must ever be rooted and nourished in prayer. In Luke 18:1, the Lord Himself tells us, “to pray always without becoming weary.” Why do you then consider prayer as burdensome? If it praying does not and should not weary us Christians here on earth, all the more that Christians in heaven, like Mary, will never be weary of it. There is just no justification, Biblical or otherwise, to your anti-Christian belief that prayer is a burden.
Catholics don’t burden Mary by asking her to pray for us now and at the hour of our death. It is by the Lord’s explicit command that prayer should not weary anybody. And it is also the Bible’s categorical teaching to “pray without ceasing” (1 Thes. 5:17). Here, your objection falters on two Biblical grounds: (1) no one should ever weary in prayer, and (2) to pray without ceasing.
I am also aghast by your lack of any idea of what heaven is like. Your eschatological milieu is totally bankrupt. Pray, tell, how can those in heaven be ever burdened and tired as you claimed that we give Mary the burden to pray for us? Can those in heaven still experience exhaustion, weariness or burden? If you say yes, you don’t know heaven at all where “there is no hunger or thirst” (Rev. 7:16) or any other limitations and privations that we do suffer and experience here on earh. “"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Cor. 2:9)]
Anonymous said…
ReplyDeleteReferring to Biblical meaning of prayer, Psalm 136 and Revelation 4:8 are not prayers but PRAISES to GOD! David acknowledges the power of God and praises Him. Same thing did by the four beast, they give glory, praises and thanksgiving to God day and night.
[Again, your view of prayer is severely limited. There is such a thing as prayer of praise and the examples in Psalm 136 and Revelation 4:8 are just examples. You have to heal your understanding of prayer and broaden your Biblical worldview of prayer. You are missing a lot of things. I wish we can share with you the great treasury of prayers of the Church, which are all taught in God’s Word. There are just so many kinds of prayer taught in the Bible– and you have absolutely no idea what these are.]
Anonymous said…
ReplyDeleteLet us always remember this passage:
(Pro 15:8) The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
[I say Amen to that! The various forms of prayer offer by Catholics who are upright are delightful to God. These include adoration and praise, thanksgiving and supplication, intercession and so much more. Yours is merely one of supplication, a very narrow and transactional view of prayer with the purpose of getting something from God. Know this: even publicans, Pharisees, and evil men pray to God to Him for something. And it seems to me you are in good company.]
the meaning of prayer was already defined well and pattern was given in the Bible, if you think that the definition made is limited, it is your opinion and I respect you opinion but not your belief.
ReplyDelete(You pray because you want something from Him. The focus is more on what you get from that relationship – and not what you give.)
I found your quoted statement above hypocrisy. Requesting is acknowledging your being incapable of something, that we are nothing, that we are only dust. God is delighted when we pray to Him.
granting without accepting that Hail Mary is a kind of prayer,intercession prayer as you have implied, how many times you recited it? 10 x 5= 50 times. Isn't that repitition? Is your god deaf? That you really need to repeat your prayer at that moment? You have not follow the pattern given by Lord Jesus.
(Psa 115:5) They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
(Psa 115:6) They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
(Psa 115:7) They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
You missed the real thought of what I tried to implied when I said you passed the burden to Mary to pray for you, it is the task or the service (G5413) and not the one you thought. Since you missed the thought, your judgement is incorrect as well. And i admit I really dont have idea whats in heaven aside from the one written already.
Granting w/o accepting again, Hail Mary is a prayer, how sure are you that she will make a prayer for you. Her spirit is already with God's hand.
(Job 12:10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
(Rev 6:9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
(Rev 6:10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
(Rev 6:11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
I believe St. John in saying that those souls were resting.
so the creed is your profession of faith. is reciting the creed show your one faith?
(Eze 33:31) And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
even the unclean spirit acknowledged that Jesus is te son of God:
(Mar 5:1) And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
(Mar 5:2) And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
(Mar 5:3) Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
(Mar 5:4) Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
(Mar 5:5) And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
(Mar 5:6) But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
(Mar 5:7) And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
(Know this: even publicans, Pharisees, and evil men pray to God to Him for something. And it seems to me you are in good company.)
Yeah I knew that, know this as well:
(Mat 6:5) And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
i forgot to say thank you for replying my previous comment, i hope the second one will be posted. thanks again.
ReplyDeletejc has left a new comment on your post "PANALANGING PAULIT-ULIT, LABAG BA SA BIBLIA?":
ReplyDeletejc said…
the meaning of prayer was already defined well and pattern was given in the Bible
[You are selective in the scripture citations that you posted the last time. The only kind of prayer defined in your quotes are prayers of supplication. They don’t deal with other forms of prayer which are also taught in God’s Word. ]
jc said…
if you think that the definition made is limited, it is your opinion and I respect you opinion but not your belief.
[Sorry, but it is not only my opinion or belief. And you got me wrong. Review my previous comment and understand it well. It is your definition of prayer that is limited, and not the Bible’s. You arrived at that limited definition because of the selective quotations that you chose. If you review your Bible thoroughly, you’d find other forms of prayer other than prayer of supplication. ]
jc said…
ReplyDelete(You pray because you want something from Him. The focus is more on what you get from that relationship – and not what you give.)
I found your quoted statement above hypocrisy.
[Please don’t be judgmental? Review what I posted and don’t chop it. This is what I said: “Prayer of REQUEST or SUPPLICATION is only one type or kind of prayer in the Bible. And there are many types of prayer though. So your view of prayer is severely limited to one kind only and doesn’t do justice to all the others taught in the Bible. I am afraid that your view of prayer – as one merely of request or supplication – is very transactional. While in itself is not wrong, as in fact it too is taught in the Bible, singular emphasis on it results in lopsided relationship with God. You pray because you want something from Him. The focus is more on what you get from that relationship – and not what you give.” Your quoted portion is just an amplification or elucidation of what I mentioned as “transactional” view of prayer. Note that I said that it is not wrong per se as it is also taught in the Bible. I only made a caution, though let me state that it was not intended to be directed to you personally, that singular or lopsided emphasis on asking God for something could focus more on what we get than for what we give.
Then you accuse me of hypocrisy? What is your basis in saying so? Do you have any idea of what my personal prayer life is like? Again, lest I be misconstrued here, I am not against asking God for something (I do that very often!), it’s just that we also need to balance our prayer life by thinking of what I too can give to God, i.e., praise, worship, thanksgiving, etc. Isn’t that what relationship is like? Give and take?]
jc said…
ReplyDeleteRequesting is acknowledging your being incapable of something, that we are nothing, that we are only dust.
[Yes, this is true. And it was never my intention to shun prayer of request. Far from it. Yet, as you yourself admitted, even Pharisees, publicans, evil men pray thus too. And you said that you knew that very well. And you gave a beautiful verse for that.
I just wonder if the Pharisees for example really acknowledge their incapability, their nothingness before God? Or are they propped up with the feeling of self-sufficiency and pride? I don’t want to judge. But as you said, they already had their reward.]
jc said…
God is delighted when we pray to Him.
[Who objects to this? Surely not me. God is a loving Father who delights in the prayer of His children. ]
jc said…
ReplyDeletegranting without accepting that Hail Mary is a kind of prayer, intercession prayer as you have implied, how many times you recited it? 10 x 5= 50 times. Isn't that repitition?
[Do we say that it’s not repetition? It is repetition. But is there a Biblical prohibition against repetition of prayer? You have to cite me one.]
jc said…
Is your god deaf?
[Definitely not. Do we claim that God is deaf? When we praise God, we do that often – repeatedly, do we? Is God deaf not to hear our praise? No. He relishes it . That’s why we read in the book of Psalms, “Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments” (Ps. 119:164). Why do it seven times a day when once would be enough? ]
jc said…
That you really need to repeat your prayer at that moment?
[Why not? Again, does the Bible prohibit repetition? I need a verse that says that repetition per se of prayer is wrong. ]
jc said…
ReplyDeleteYou have not follow the pattern given by Lord Jesus.
[Of course we do. And no less than Our Lord engaged in repeating a prayer. The evangelist Matthew reports , “So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing” (Mt. 26:44). Is Jesus’ God deaf that it had to take Jesus pray for the third time saying the same thing? I don’t think so.]
jc said…
(Psa 115:5) They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
(Psa 115:6) They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
(Psa 115:7) They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
[What have these verses got to do with the topic on prayer?]
jc said…
You missed the real thought of what I tried to implied when I said you passed the burden to Mary to pray for you, it is the task or the service (G5413) and not the one you thought.
[It’s because you did not make yourself clear. Nevertheless, your accusation that we pass on to Mary to pray for us is inaccurate because we do pray for ourselves (I often pray for my self) and of course ask the prayers of other Christians (and Mary is certainly one of these Christians we ask to pray for us).]
jc said…
ReplyDeleteSince you missed the thought, your judgement is incorrect as well.
[Because you failed to make yourself clear.]
jc said…
And i admit I really dont have idea whats in heaven aside from the one written already.
[That’s why. Thank you for this admission.]
jc said…
Granting w/o accepting again, Hail Mary is a prayer, how sure are you that she will make a prayer for you.
[The testimony of answered prayer. For me, it’s no a question that she will pray for me; it is a matter of fact that she does pray for me. My experience, as well as of millions of Catholics (and others), prove that she prays for us and her intercession before God is powerful. All that I have asked the Lord God through the intercession of Mary have been obtained. ]
jc said…
Her spirit is already with God's hand. (Job 12:10) In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
[Precisely. And since her spirit is already with God, she is already in close union with the Divine will. And what is the will of God? “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4).
And what did Our Lord Jesus teach us? To pray that God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven (Mt. 6:10). If it is God’s will on earth that we be save, it is His same will in heaven. And Mary who is with God knows that and her will is attuned to God’s will. Hence, she too is concerned with our salvation and so with the rest of the “great cloud of witnesses” in heaven (Heb. 12:1).]
jc said…
ReplyDelete(Rev 6:9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
(Rev 6:10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
(Rev 6:11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
I believe St. John in saying that those souls were resting.
[Sad to say, your belief is wrong. The verses that you cited refute you. The souls re not resting, they are crying with a loud voice asking God to avenge their blood on those who dwell on the earth (Rev. 6:10). This is a form of an imprecatory prayer – which is actually an intercessory prayer for the just against the unjust. The words “rest yet for a little season” in the translation that you chose simply means to wait a little longer, as is made clear in the NIV, “Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed” (Rev. 6:11, NIV).
The souls in heaven are not paralyzed nor inactive. On the contrary they are more alive and active now that they are with God. Contrast your view with what the Bible clearly reveals:
8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth" (Rev. 5:8-10).
See? They worship the Lamb, they offer incense which are the prayers of the saints on earth, they sing songs, etc. They are alive and active!]
jc said…
ReplyDeleteso the creed is your profession of faith.
[Yes, precisely.]
jc said…
is reciting the creed show your one faith?
[Did I say that? Please don’t put words in my mouth. This is what I said: “What about the Creed? It is not storytelling but our profession of Faith, as St. Paul instructs us, “let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering” (Heb. 10:23). With the Creed, Catholics are in “one faith” in which with “the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:10). St. Jude tells us to “contend for the faith that is once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). The faith that is once and for all delivered to the saints may be found in the Apostles Creed.
The Creed has it’s counterpart in the Shema of the Old Testament People of God: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord Our God is one Lord” (Dt. 6:4). Deuteronomy 26 informs us that the Lord God instructed the Israelites that when they speak to Him, they should narrate the wondrous works He has done for them (Dt. 26:5-9). Read the verse for yourself. Then you’d realize that that’s story-telling precisely.
Christians on the other hand recite the twelve articles of their Faith contained in the Apostle’s Creed. One of the earliest creedal formulations is found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 which now forms part of the Apostle’s Creed. All the twelve articles of faith found in the Creed are Biblical. They are the synopsis of what the New Testament people of God believe and proclaim in which “we all come in the unity of the faith” (Eph. 4:13).]”
jc said…
ReplyDelete(Eze 33:31) And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
[If an individual shows love by mouth yet his heart goes after covetousness, that is his problem. We cannot generalize.
“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men” (Isa. 29:13). It is important that while we honor God with our mouth, it is all the more important that our heart should not be far from Him.]
jc said…
ReplyDeleteeven the unclean spirit acknowledged that Jesus is the son of God:
(Mar 5:1) And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
(Mar 5:2) And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
(Mar 5:3) Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
(Mar 5:4) Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
(Mar 5:5) And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
(Mar 5:6) But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
(Mar 5:7) And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
[Your scripture citations are irrelevant here. So what if the devils acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God? Jesus really IS the Son of God and even the devils acknowledge that. More so. James tells us, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble” (James 2:19).
Just because the devil believes in God does that mean we are not to believe in God? And just because the devil acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God we are no longer to proclaim that He is? “And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Mt. 16:16-17).
Finally, Romans 10:9 says, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
You see, what is important here is both the actual confession of the mouth and the faith in our heart.]
jc said…
ReplyDelete(Know this: even publicans, Pharisees, and evil men pray to God to Him for something. And it seems to me you are in good company.)
Yeah I knew that, know this as well:
(Mat 6:5) And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
[My point precisely. Thank you for admitting this.]
jc said…
ReplyDeletei forgot to say thank you for replying my previous comment, i hope the second one will be posted. thanks again.
[Thank you too. Your comment is posted with my reply.]