Thursday, March 25, 2010

Third Response (SHORT VERSION) to Gerry Soliman – A Brief Note on Discerning the Canon

Moses striking the Rock while Aaron standing on his side wearing a Mitre
*******
Gerry Soliman’s “response” to me also contains the following answer to one of my responses, which is one of the strangest and weirdest attempts at Protestant apologetics that I’ve ever seen. I have put Mr. Soliman’s text in blue and red, my answer is in bold black.

This is the SHORT VERSION. I have a second, LONG VERSION of my response, which I can post when necessary.

A Variant of the White Question

#13 - How could the Jews know that books of Kings or Isaiah were Scripture?
Mr. Palad's Response: They had access to the inspired voice of a continuous stream of patriarchs and prophets, ending with John the Baptist. We can also point to the Seat of Moses (a reference to the teaching authority of the High Priest and the Sanhedrin).

Comment: Unfortunately for Mr. Palad, he does not get the implication of the question. Roman Catholics claim that they know the books that belongs in the Bible because their infallible magisterium tells them so. But for the Jews who were born years before Christ how did they know that Kings or Isaiah were Scripture when there is no Catholic Church at that time? In fairness Mr. Palad's response is somewhat accurate which the Jews can inquire from the High Priest and Sanhedrin. But is Mr. Palad actually saying that Old Testament authorities were infallible like the claim he gives for the Church of Rome? If so, what is his basis? Can he actually present credible historical data that the Old Testament High Priest, Sanhedrin, patriarchs, and prophets claimed infallibility or were recognized as infallible? If it was possible for the Old Testament Jews to rightly identify the Scriptures without an aid of an infallible authority, then infallibility for the church is out of the question.

Mr. Soliman, in his crusade against the papacy, sets up an argument that openly questions the infallibility of the Old Testament patriarchs and prophets. This is a horrendous blasphemy that no real Evangelical would even countenance. If the patriarchs and prophets are not infallible, then what is the point of considering the Old Testament to be God’s infallible Word???

In addition, apart from the question of the infallibility of the Prophets and Patriarchs, if we are to grant the correctness Mr. Soliman’s argument that the Jews were capable of discerning Scriptures on their own without any authority then this should greatly hurt the Protestant position. The Old Testament Jews, for instance, accepted the Books of Tobit, Judith, the 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus and Baruch, as we can see from the pre-Christian “Septuagint” Bible. If – according to Mr. Soliman – the Old Testament Jews were capable of pointing out which books are inspired, then why do the Protestants keep rejecting the verdict of the Old Testament Jews, and accept instead the reduced “Canon” of Scriptures codified by some of the Rabbis of post-Temple Judaism, who had rejected Christ and the Apostles and had anathemized the Christians?

Be it an Old Testament Jew or a New Testament Christian, they have fellowship with God. Through this fellowship, they developed a relationship with God which made them know the character of God. And since they know God, they can recognize his words and tell if they are Scriptures:

You know, I think a lot of Protestants will shout this down as heresy. Are you stating that the Old Testament Jews and the New Testament Christians are on an equal plane, and have the same fellowship and relationship with God, and had the same knowledge of God? This flies in the face of all Biblical and apostolic teaching, and makes the Death of the Savior and the very Gospel itself unnecessary.

It should also be obvious that to appeal to the special situation of the Jews who lived prior to Our Lord’s life, ministry, and saving Passion, in order to debunk what the Catholic Church teaches regarding the way by which spiritual certainty is accessible to the men of the time AFTER the Ascension of Our Lord, is extremely foolish, and implicitly denies the distinction between the Old and New Testaments.

Enough said.

When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice. John 10:4-5 NIV

Thank you for citing this verse, which also powerfully points out – if you didn’t notice – the need for the sheep to follow the shepherd. In the Catholic Church, the Holy Father is our Pastor, who stands as the representative of, and by the authority of, Christ the Good Shepherd. The same cannot be said of the Protestants, who by no stretch of the imagination can be seen as a single sheepfold following a single shepherd.

51 comments:

  1. hi Fr. abe,

    Hindi ako nagpunta dito to have an argument. Just to know catholics/ your side about this. I just want to ask how can you prove that the Catholic church is still the original church or the same and identical church with the 1st century church? Regarding the beliefs?

    Nd na ko magpapaligoy ligoy pa.^_^
    What i want an answer from you sir is that post doctrines in the Catholic church with the date it began and the authors of it...

    Then, let us judge if it is so..
    If the beliefs of the catholics nowadays are the beliefs of the 1st century christians...

    Godbless po. Tnx.
    i will wait for your answer^_^

    ReplyDelete
  2. Hello, Read me. The Holy Week is the holiest days for us Catholics and therefore I admonish you to wait at the end of the week.

    Before I answer your questions may I also ask if the INC doctrines today are the doctrines of the Christians of the First Century?

    ReplyDelete
  3. Fr. Abe, tanung ko lang po kung anu masasabe nyo about this? Medyo nakakalungkot po kasi yung reactions ng iba po nating fellow Catholics

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100330/ap_on_re_eu/eu_church_abuse_angry_flock

    ReplyDelete
  4. Fr. Abe,

    Yes. I respect the holy week.
    That's why i said, "i will wait for your answer"...

    Again, nd po ako ngpunta to have an argument, but to know your side about this.

    But for your question, i will say YES.
    (lahat naman, kahit sa inyo o sa ibang faith ko itanong yan, yes ang sagot. syempre un ang pinaniniwalaan natin. RIGHT?^_^)

    TNX.TC

    ReplyDelete
  5. Fr. Abe, panu po naging Monsignor si Monsignor Luiz Marques Barbosa? Paano nya po nagawa ito sa loob mismo ng simbahan? Paano po ba mapipigilan ng Simbahang Katoliko ang mga ganitong Pari?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhiXLrLFig

    ReplyDelete
  6. Thank you Read me for respecting the Holy Week and for your answer to my question. On my part, it is also YES!

    God bless you.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Fr Abe,
    Sorry for interrupting, but i think this readme guy also frequents the blog spot of Cenon Bibe, Tumbukin Natin, so he is really up to some arguments here.

    Sorry din readme if i think you are not interested with the truth in coming here. Cenon Bibe has already given you a lot of truth about the authenticity of the Catholic Church, and it is up to you to make something of it to open your mind to the errors of INC. Of course I may be wrong about your real interest. I hope I am wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Anonymus,

    Yes. On that blog, that i get no answers but of many of opinions and accusations of that Catholic Apologist. If my question were answered in there, why does Cenon Bibe did not post my challenge and my real question to him? I know what is wrong and what is right, and i am open. If there are errors in the INC, id better stop my acts like this, ok? How about you, i will just bring back your statement to you. Are your mind open with the errors in your beloved church?^_^

    ReplyDelete
  9. Anonymous(Catholic)April 2, 2010 9:59 PM

    Have a blessed holy week to all.... Godbless... will be including our separated brethren in the prayers of the church...

    ReplyDelete
  10. cmon read me...liar...!

    ReplyDelete
  11. LIAR PO C README...LAHAT PO NG QUESTIONS AY CNASAGOT NI BRO CENON....GUSTO MO POST KO DITO MGA SAGOT NI MR CENON SA MGA TANONG MO...OPEN MINDED DAW O....

    ReplyDelete
  12. Pag binasa po natin ang Blog ni Bro. Cenon pati mga mura at mga masasakit na salita ng mga katunggali ay hindi nya binubura.

    ReplyDelete
  13. wag ka na magkunwari read me na hindi nasagot mga tanong mo, di ka ba makapgsabi ng totoo kahit minsan sa tanang buhay mo? ilan beses ka na nga sinasagot ni bro cenon sa blog nya at iba pa mga CFD.

    ReplyDelete
  14. README SAYS:
    How about you, i will just bring back your statement to you. Are your mind open with the errors in your beloved church?^_^

    ANONYMOUS:
    The Catholic Church is INFALLIBLE when it teaches about FAITH and MORALS. Jesus made sure of it, when he made the Church as the pillar and the bulwark of the truth (1 tim 3:15). So, what errors are you talking about?

    Is the INC also INFALLIBLE? Of course not!

    ReplyDelete
  15. read me...ito yung link ng tanong mo kay bro cenon...just in case nalimutan mo na...also it is answered not by opinions but of biblical verses...natutulan nyo ba ito?

    http://tumbukin-natin.blogspot.com/2010/03/iglesia-katolika-galing-ba-noong-unang.html

    ReplyDelete
  16. I DONT READ YOUApril 4, 2010 7:36 PM

    README SAYS:
    How about you, i will just bring back your statement to you. Are your mind open with the errors in your beloved church?^_^

    I DONT READYOU SAYS:
    When it comes to FAITH and MORALS, the CATHOLIC CHURCH is INFALLIBLE. So, what kind of errors are you talking about?

    ReplyDelete
  17. Richard FriendApril 5, 2010 1:49 AM

    How did the Old Testament Jews know that the OT books were the inspired word of God? This is actually a good question, and one that exposes the the great defect of the sola scriptura argument.

    Gerry Soliman asks for evidence that the OT patriarchs and prophets were infallible in determining the books of the Old Testament. The great protestant dilmenna is that they cannot accept the idea that divine revelation was for thousands of years transmitted orally through the prophets and patriarchs. There is no divine written revelation that showed which books were to be part of the Old (or New) Testament. Prior to the bible, divine revelation was handed down orally through Sacred Tradition. Many things were not written down, yet were held and affirmed to be true. For intance, Matt 23:1-12 speaks about Moses' seat. There is no mention of "Moses' seat" anywhere in the Old Testamanent, yet by mentioning this Jesus affirmed the ancient teaching office of Moses. Just because there is no written evidence supporting the notion of "Moses' seat" in the OT does not mean that it was a fallible teaching office.

    Unlike modern-day protestants, OT Jews did not question the canon of the scripture; they were perfectly content to trust in the infallible oral teaching of OT patriarchs and prophets. More importantly for us Christians, if the canon of the Old Testament were infallible, you think our Lord would have said so when he walked the earth? On the contrary, time and time again, the Lord quoted from the Septuagint, affirming the infallible nature of the canon of the Old Testament.

    The bottom line is that the infallibitlity of the canon of the books of the bible cannot be proved by any written document. The canon was determined with finality only by the magisterium of the Church, in union with the successor of St. Peter.

    ReplyDelete
  18. magandang araw po father
    itatanongko lang po,bakit magkakontra ang 1 cro 21:1-... at 2 sam 24:1-... pakipaliwanag naman ang mga ibig sabihin,pls hihintayin kopo ang sagot n'yo,salamat po

    ReplyDelete
  19. Yes, i am a liar! What do i expect from a Catholic member? Whatever i say and does, still, i am called a "liar". Why? SImple answer. Because i am a Iglesia Ni Cristo member! Now, i know how the true members of Christ being persecuted by other faith especially Catholics. mmmm... too bad.

    Post mo sagot? cge, Post mo rin yung tanong ko ah? tgnan natin kung cnagot nya ung tanong ko. O pinaligoy ligoy lang nya.


    Fr. Abe.
    Holy week has been finished, how was it? ^_^ Im still waiting for your answer. Gobless.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Read me, indeed Holy Week is finished unfortunately I am in vacation now which will be followed by annual retreat. So for the rest of April this Blog is virtually inactive. Hope you understand. God bless you too.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Anonymous(Catholic)April 7, 2010 9:52 PM

    Readme said:

    Yes, i am a liar! What do i expect from a Catholic member? Whatever i say and does, still, i am called a "liar". Why? SImple answer. Because i am a Iglesia Ni Cristo member! Now, i know how the true members of Christ being persecuted by other faith especially Catholics. mmmm... too bad.

    response:

    wala na bang bago readme?
    ganyan na lng lagi ang palusot mo, nung sa catholic.com pa katunog na iyang palusot mo eh.
    kung hindi ka makatutol o makasagot eh palalabasin mo na inaapi ka. wag ganyan readme, nagbubulag-bulagan ka na niyan eh.

    Hindi mo nakita kung pano insultuhin ng mga kapatid mo sa inc ang mga katoliko. hindi mo ba nabasa ang mga posts nila sa tumbukin natin? o sadyang ayaw mo lng basahin at tanggapin ang katotohan na iyan?

    Sinasabi mo na si Bro. Cenon ang paligoy-ligoy?, nakakatuwa readme dahil may ebidensiya kung ano ang totoo at sinu talaga ang nagsisinungaling. DOKUMENTADO kasi ang usapan eh. gusto mo malaman kung sino ang totoong ngpapaligoy ligoy? basahin mo ulit ang mga posts doon simula pa ng disyembre at malalaman mo.

    Maliwanagan ka sana readme.. GODBLESS!

    Fr. Abe, CRS

    Happy Easter pala! Godbless

    ReplyDelete
  22. Sabi ni Readme:
    Yes, i am a liar! What do i expect from a Catholic member? Whatever i say and does, still, i am called a "liar". Why? SImple answer. Because i am a Iglesia Ni Cristo member! Now, i know how the true members of Christ being persecuted by other faith especially Catholics. mmmm... too bad.

    Anonymous:
    Itong si Readme talaga. Ang reaction po niya ay typical sa mga naiipit sa usapan. Biglang nagkakaroon ng "PERSECUTION SYNDROME." Tigilan mo na nga iyang pa feeling-api Readme. Nagmumukha ka lang ipokrito nyan e. Ilang taon na bang ina-alipusta ng INC ang Iglesya Katolika? Mula't mula pa lang noong 1914 ay walang tigil na ninyong INAATAKE ang Katoliko. Marami na kayong nasaktang damdamin, lalong lalo na yung walang kalaban-laban sa bibliya. Tapos ngayon na sumasagot na kami sa mga pang-aalipusta ninyo ay kayo pa ngayon ang "persecuted?" Naman! Gising na bata!

    ReplyDelete
  23. Fr Abe,
    With your permission Father,I'd like to post my dialogs with ADD's Heavens Knight here, since he refused to publish them in his blog. He's really scared of them. Still, it's all up to you to allow me. But let me try Father. Here it is:

    HEAVENS KNIGHT’S (HK) INTIMATION OF FRIGHT

    1.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    “The problem with Manny, it seems he hasn’t review first the flow of the discussions. He must review first our discussions against Parabanog and Beltran. He engaged in a dispute that doesn’t belong to him.”

    MANNY CRUZ:
    2.) You created this blog with the understanding of posting your views for the world to read and react to. Now that somebody like me CRITIQUED your ideas, you suddenly turned cry baby.

    3.) You are the ones who first created the strife by ATTACKING the Catholic Church, of which I am a member. Your complaint about my meddling in a blog spot that is open to worldwide interaction would make sense only if you believed that Beltran and Parabanog were the only members of the Catholic Church. Now tell me, what business is it for you to besmirch the dignity of the true Church of Jesus Christ by branding it as false and unbiblical, among other things? It seems to me that you are the ones who are meddling with the issues of the Catholic Church. Thus, Proverbs 27:17 applies more to you:
    He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears.

    4.) You freely responded to my comments with equal antagonism. A new dispute is therefore made between the two of us. And it’s amazing that after taking some blows from me, and me taking some from you, you suddenly wanted to throw me out of the ring. Lest you accuse me of accusing you, I would rather frankly say that you simply acted like a childish, scared sour loser.

    2
    “CHURCH of GOD”: BIBLICAL or TECHNICAL?

    B.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    “The proof of that let us read his careless remarks regarding my assertion.
    “Manny said: Indeed, we must not exceed what the apostles taught us! St. Paul used the phrase ‘church of God’ eleven times, as you claimed. Then you concluded that this is the “official name” of the Church of Jesus. Obviously you did not notice it, but your conclusion is not merited by the premise that you laid. In those verses, Paul did not say that “church of God” is an official name! (It’s not even capitalised! Didn’t you see it?)
    “Sadly, that isn’t how I laid my arguments but Manny had his own version of concluding it.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    5.) You are indeed very clever. Why are you now trying to wiggle your way out from the fact that your CONCLUSION (about the official name of the Church) is NOT MERITED by the premises that you had laid, in whatever way you presented them? I made it clear to you that what I meant by the word “official name” is the TECHNICAL or PROPER NAME, in contrast with the COMMON NAME or GENERIC NAME. And you never objected to it.

    6.) That the term “Church of God” is biblical is a valid statement. Congratulations, you are right in this regard. I don’t object to that. The problem began when you over-extended your claim to mean that “Church of God” is an OFFICIAL NAME or PROPER NAME in its technical sense; the same way you use MCGI (or CARC, for that matter) as the proper name for your group. This is the perspective in which I argued that you actually went beyond what was written (1 Cor 4:6); meaning that you ADDED your own private interpretation to the Word of God.
    ****
    3
    C.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    I presented eleven verses containing the words “Church of God” or “church of God” to show that it is Biblical. To prove that, I even entitled my articles: “Is the Name Catholic Apostolic Roman Church Biblical?

    MANNY CRUZ:
    7.) You mean the PROOF of your conclusion is the TITLE of your article? Don’t confuse yourself. You don’t make any sense here.

    ReplyDelete
  24. ON SOLA SCRIPTURA 1

    D.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    Thus, the common denominator to be used in discussing Christian faith is the Bible. Proving a Christian faith outside the Bible is like a boxer fighting outside the ring.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    8.) You are showing your ignorance of Church history. You are talking as if Christian faith emerged only AFTER the bible was written. You have completely forgotten the fact that the Bible as we know it today was compiled only during the 4th century (360AD: Council of Laodicea; 363AD: Council of Hippo; 397 AD: Council of Carthage) through the efforts of the Catholic Church. For the first 300 years or so, there were no Bibles like the KJV, NIV, GNB, etc. How can the Christians at that time “discuss their faith” using the Bible when there was no “Bible” in the first place?

    9.) If you look at ACTS 15:1-35, you’ll see how the church leaders came up with a definitive teaching on certain faith matters, in what was known as the First Council of Jerusalem. Absolutely NO SOLA SCRIPTURA there. The apostles rather decided on their OWN AUTHORITY, in accordance with the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28).

    10.) Besides, it is impossible for Apostles to say that “the common denominator to be used in discussing Christian faith is the Bible.” Why? There are two obvious reasons.

    11.) Firstly, the Old Testament was the only “Bible” that they had. (I may be wrong, but I don’t think the apostles referred to the OT as the “Bible,” mainly because word “bible” or “biblos” had a pagan origin that specifically pointed to the books about pagan gods and goddesses.)

    12.) Given this situation, if they used Sola Scriptura, they would naturally get stuck with the Old Testament alone! Could they (or you and me) truly formulate the totality of Christian beliefs based solely on the Old Testament? I don’t think that’s possible at all. On the other hand, you have to consider that the said Council of Jerusalem was dated around the year 50 AD when not a single book in the New Testament was written yet. (The first NT books, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, were dated much later, around AD 52.) Moreover, the Old Testament itself was silent about the issue of circumcising non-Jewish converts to Christianity. And so the apostles decided to dispense these converts from the requirements of Mosaic Law, not on the basis of Sola Scriptura, but on the bases of their Apostolic Authority as confirmed by the Holy Spirit.

    13.) Secondly, Jesus himself never mandated the use of SOLA SCRIPTURA. There was no hint whatsoever that Jesus intended Sola Scriptura “to be used in discussing Christian Faith,” as you would like to have us believe. Instead, Jesus established a Church that would never fail (Mat 16:18), gave it authority to make disciples, to baptize and to teach (Mat 28:19-20), to preach (Mk 16:15), to heal (Luke 9:1-3); to forgive sins (Jn 20:21; Lk 24:45-48), and so on. Furthermore, Jesus intended for the Church to be the means by which humanity may know of God’s mysteries (Eph 3:10; Acts 8:29-32), thereby making the Church an effective instrument of salvation (Acts 13:47). Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Jn 16:13, 7-16; Acts 1:8), this Church will never teach errors, as she would be INFALLIBLE in matters of FAITH and MORALS.

    ReplyDelete
  25. ON SOLA SCRIPTURA 2

    MANNY CRUZ:
    14.) Naturally, the early Christians rather got their guidance from the Teaching Authority of the Church or Magisterium. Rightly so, because it is the Church, and not the Bible, that is “the Pillar and Bulwark of the truth” (2 Tim 3:15). Thus, the Church, with its Teaching Authority, Sacred Tradition, and Scriptures, became the “common denominator” (to borrow your term) for deciding matters of Christian beliefs. Let me hasten to add that Christianity is a living religion protected and passed on by people, not paper.

    15.) It is no wonder then that the Catholic Church gave birth to the Bible, and not the other way around. It was the Catholic Church that decided which of the existing books would be included or excluded from the canon of the Bible. (Those other writings, especially those coming from the Gnostic tradition i.e., Gospel of Barnabas, Acts of Paul, Gospel of Judas, etc., that did not conform to Church teachings/traditions simply did not make it to the Bible). Even Martin Luther himself, the inventor of Sola Scriptura, admitted this when he said:

    16.) “We are compelled to concede to the papists that they have the Word of God: THAT WE RECEIVED IT FROM THEM, AND THAT WITHOUT THEM WE SHOULD HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF IT AT ALL.” (Commentary on John 14)

    17.) No matter how much you loathe your mistaken beliefs about the Catholic Church, you cannot escape from the fact that you unknowingly accepted many Catholic Traditions, among them were the canon of Sacred Scriptures and the stamp of Catholic authority behind it.

    18.) Isolating the Bible from Sacred Tradition and Magisterium of the Church is like taking the fish out of the water. Making the Bible the only “common denominator is discussing Christian Faith” is the real boxer fighting out of the ring. It is an UNBIBLICAL principle birthed by the Luther-made SOLA SCRIPTURA. This is the matrix in which the Bible (read in isolation from Church Authority and Sacred Tradition) gave birth to your “Church.”

    19.) All of Luther’s followers who subsequently rejected the authority of the Catholic Church were left with nothing but their own personal (private) interpretation of Scripture. Sadly, this man-made tradition only created more disunity, divisions, sectarian rivalries and disputes, the by-product of which are the groups like ADD, INC, JW, SDA, etc. Thousands more sects were created almost on a daily basis world-wide because of this kind of infection, all of them using SOLA SCRIPTURA as their guiding principle. And there seems to be no stopping this religious equivalent of bacterial multiplication. This sad reality of disunity no doubt is contrary to the Bible (1 Cor 1:11-13). The Bible itself clearly prohibited private interpretation (2 Pet 1:20; 3:16) because as we have seen, this only led to the fragmentation of Christianity.

    ReplyDelete
  26. PRICKING HK’S BUBBLES OF LIES

    E.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    We are proud we have Manny Pacquiao who knows this rule in boxing, but it’s a shame we have Manny Cruz who doesn’t know the rule of spiritual warfare and courtesy.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    20.) Ad Hominem attacks seems to be natural for you. But it doesn’t bother me how much shame you have seen in me, because I have seen enough of my past and present sins and I am truly ashamed of all of them. But unfortunately for you, they will never become part of the argument that will help your case in our discussion. Whatever you meant by “spiritual warfare and courtesy” should not take precedence over the truth. Since you spread huge bubbles of lies with your false claims, I felt obligated to prick them. I’m sorry if in doing so I did not come on as a very nice guy for you.
    6
    F.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    But let’s go to his allegations. Manny believes that the official name of the church is not an issue to the apostles; he doesn’t believe that the term “Church of God” is an official name.
    Manny said: Indeed, we must not exceed what the apostles taught us! St. Paul used the phrase ‘church of God’ eleven times, as you claimed. Then you concluded that this is the “official name” of the Church of Jesus. Obviously you did not notice it, but your conclusion is not merited by the premise that you laid. In those verses, Paul did not say that “church of God” is an official name! (It’s not even capitalised! Didn’t you see it?)

    He said St. Paul didn’t mention that the name “church of God” is an official name in the verses I laid (he even asserted that it was not even capitalized). This argumentum ad ignorantium or argument to ignorance, where he assumes something is false simply because it hasn’t proven yet or, better say, he is not aware of my explanation, neither prove his stand nor refute mine.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    21.) Paul did not say that “church of God” is an official name. Are you now saying that Paul did say it after all? If so, where’s the verse that says “church of God is an official name or proper name according to Paul?” If you can show the world such a verse, then the whole issue is finished already, to your favor.

    22.) My statement is definitely not argumentum ad ignorantiam. I did not falsify your claim solely on the basis of its being unproven. You completely misappropriated the fallacy to my argument, which says a lot about your level of analytic skills. My argument was rather a statement about the REAL FALLACY that you committed, that is: CLAIMING THAT SOMETHING IS THERE (official name) WHEN THERE IS NOT. You stared at a blank wall, and then you claimed to have seen a Mona Lisa; or you looked at the mirror but instead saw Brad Pitt (or perhaps Angelina?) on your own REFLECTION. You considered as evidence your private interpretation of Psalm 119:160, and then you transposed it into the biblical renditions of “Church of God” and voila, the Church has an official name, discovered by Eli Soriano 2000 years later. And that’s the trap where you have fallen so badly.

    ReplyDelete
  27. NO EVIDENCE FOR HK’S CLAIM

    MANNY CRUZ:
    23.) When you made a claim that the Catholic Church adopted an official name in 1870 at the first Vatican Council, you cited as evidence Crock’s account on the bishops deliberating, proposing, rejecting, and eventually deciding on the name CARC. In the case of the Apostles, you presented no similar evidence at all! You have the whole bible at your disposal, as well as the writings of the early bishops and church fathers; but still, NO EVIDENCE. Not one of these authorities ever regarded “Church of God” as the proper name for the Church.

    24.) If ever we can cite one Church leader who used what seemed to be a proper name for the Church, Ignatius of Antioch would come to mind. He was among the first successors of the Apostles who already practiced the Christian faith while St John the Apostle was still alive. At that time Ignatius already referred to the whole Church as “Catholic.” (Again, unfortunately for you, he did not use the “proper name” of “Church of God.” Absolutely, he never used MCGIP). Here is what he said in his letter to the Church at Smyrna shortly before his martyrdom in 110 AD:

    25.) “Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (cf. Early Church Fathers by Cyril Richardson, p. 115)

    26.) Now, if you don’t call your baseless conclusion a fallacy, then what kind of delusion is it? (By the way, maybe you don’t know it yet, but there are non-fallacious ways of using argumentum ad ignorantiam. One example: PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.)

    ReplyDelete
  28. HK’S WRONG QUESTION
    7
    G.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    He believes that the church during St. Paul’s time has no official name. We, then, asked proof of his accusation but he just went on an escape, not an answer.
    Manny said: Your question is really asking this, “can you PROVE in the Bible that the Church has NO offical name?”
    Well, from the scientific point of view, the question is grossly WRONG! It should never be asked in the first place…
    It is not true that my question is grossly wrong. Why? I’m in a position to ask: where can you read that apostles said there is no official name for the church? That is because I already presented arguments, and even affirmative questions, to build my prima facie case.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    27.) You definitely are in a position to ask, but you definitely asked wrongly. What’s the point (for the Apostles) of positively asserting that “there was no official name” when “official name” was not an issue for them in the first place? Do you expect the apostles to write down something that they never thought of? You are really looking for something that is not there to begin with. Your question is wrong since it flows from your Mona Lisa/Brad Pitt/Angelina fallacy. Scientifically, your question is still invalid.
    8
    H.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    Manny even accused me of violating some scientific principles.
    Manny said: Well, from the scientific point of view, the question is grossly WRONG! It should never be asked in the first place. Because it VIOLATES a basic scientific principle: You do not prove that something does not exist. In other words, you cannot prove the negative. Proof is always aimed at the positive, the negative statement comes only at the end, as a result perhaps or a conclusion of the positive process of PROVING (the existence of something).
    It seems that Manny forgot some rules in argumentation.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    28.) Sorry to say but you misunderstood my point here. My statement is not about “rules of argumentation.” It is about asking the right questions whether or not one engages in argumentation. You may be sitting alone in front of your computer but still you are bound to ask questions to yourself correctly. Any serious scientific inquiry will not dare ask to prove the non-existence of something. You simply can’t say, “I can prove to you that UFO’s don’t exist!” But you dared to ask that way, that’s why I told you that you asked wrongly. You cannot ask a scientifically invalid question! That’s the point! The right question should rather be “Did the Apostles adopt “Church of God” as a Proper Name for the Church?” The evidence that you have presented in response to this question is simply INSUFFICIENT, IRRELEVANT, and DID NOT MERIT your conclusion. That is your problem!

    ReplyDelete
  29. HK’S BLIND MAN’S ARGUMENT

    I.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    Burden of proof can sometimes be shifted; for example, in some forms of debate, the proponent can shift the burden of proof to the opponent by presenting a prima facie case that would, in the absence of refutation, be sufficient to affirm the proposition. Still, the higher burden of proof generally rests with the proponent, which means that only the opposition is in a position to make an accusation of argumentum ad ignorantiam with respect to proving the proposition.

    We have built our prima facie case in our first and second topic, sadly, Manny didn’t get the point. Whenever he says there is no official name for the church, he is now making accusations. Burden of proof was now then shifted in his position. Hence, burden of rebuttal

    MANNY CRUZ:
    29.) You are trying to shift the burden of proof, by asking the wrong questions? You gotta be kidding me. You asked: where can you read that apostles said there is no official name for the church? This questioning is plain sophistry. Why do you expect the apostles to say anything regarding that which they never gave importance to? Even you Heavens Knight had so far never given a solid theological justification as to why a proper name for the Church should be held and maintained by all Christians, so why should we expect the same from the apostles?

    30.) Well, again, your sophistry flows from your fallacy of claiming that something is there when there is not. This is very much like a blind man looking for a black cat in a black-painted dark room that was not there after all. You’ll find nothing with this kind of questioning, because it is still scientifically INVALID.

    31.) In the first place, you have not even positively shown with absolute certainty that the apostles deliberated, discussed, and then adopted an “official name” for the Church. How can you shift the burden of proof when you have not proven anything yet! In the absence of a direct biblical testimony, you presented not even a single circumstantial evidence from the early Church Fathers. Instead, what we had was Ignatius of Antioch’s mention of the “Catholic Church” as noted above. (If we follow your argument, we can say that “Catholic Church” was the official name because it was used by Church authorities like Ignatius.)

    32.) But what have you proven so far? Well, without doubt you have clearly and distinctly proven your propensity for privately interpreting Scripture and then boldly making your own addition to it, in violation of your own unbiblical principle of Sola Scriptura.

    ReplyDelete
  30. 10
    DEFINE “OFFICIAL NAME”: HK DIGS FOR NONE

    J.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    Catholic authorities believe that the name of their church didn’t come from Jesus . . .
    It was not God who made CARC [Catholic Apostolic Roman Church] an official name but bishops of Vatican.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    33.) A number of bishops at Vatican 1 proposed CARC to be the official name for the Church. But that is all there is to it. Obviously you have not read the documents of Vatican l. Because if you do, you would have found out that there was no “official name” for the Church in those documents. Pope Pius however affirmed some features of the Church that are descriptive of the Church of Jesus Christ. Here are the exact words of Pope Pius:

    I affirm that the power of indulgences was left by Christ in the church, and that their use is eminently beneficial to the christian people. I acknowledge the
    0. holy,
    1. catholic,
    2. apostolic and
    3. Roman
    church, the mother and mistress of all the churches 1.

    34.) So, where did Pope Pius say that CARC is the “official name” of the Church? You said it is CARC, but Pope Pius wrote HCARC MMC!

    35.) You claimed that the Catholic Church adopted an official name. As proof, you cited Crock’s book noting the bishops’ deliberations in proposing, rejecting, and then deciding on the official name, that is, CARC. (Is this also the way you came up with the official name of your group MCGI, or you just let Eli Soriano decide it for you?) In contrast, you claimed that the Apostles adopted, or as you’ve preferred, “got” the official name for the Church, but you failed to show that the apostles actually engaged in similar deliberations in proposing, rejecting, and finally deciding on the “official name” of the Church. That’ why I said you have not proven anything yet!

    36.) However, you have to remember that Vatican l (or any other Council for that matter) did not make a single statement about having an official name for the Church, contrary to your claims. Just as it was during the time of the Apostles, the “official name” or proper name was never a big issue in the Catholic Church. Do you think that the Bishops at Vatican l would even care to propose an official name if there had been one already? THE VERY FACT THAT IT (OFFICIAL NAME) CAME UP ONLY IN 1870 IS PROOF ENOUGH THAT THERE HAD BEEN NONE BEFOREHAND.

    ReplyDelete
  31. SCRIPTURAL VENTRILONQUISM OF HK
    11
    K.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    Why then we believe that the name Church of God is the official name, not CARC? We believe that it is official on the basis that no teachings came from God that is unofficial. (Psalms 119:160)
    Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    37.) You are reading too much between the lines! Which version of the Bible has translated Psalm 119:160 as “no teachings came from God that is unofficial?” You are interpreting the word of God rather very loosely. It is so preposterous that you make it sound like it’s about the official name of the Church! Again, you showed your propensity for ADDING your own words to the sacred scriptures. That is plain Scriptural Ventriloquism.

    *********************
    12
    L.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    We also believe the name “Church of God” is official; by “official” I mean of or relating to an office or a post of authority. Regarding church’ name, “Church of God” is a name acknowledged and used by authorities such as St. Paul.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    38.) Simply put, in your understanding, “Church of God” becomes a proper name or official name because it is used by “authorities” like St Paul. Your reasoning is very shaky and shallow.

    39.) Firstly, the apostles called the Church in many other ways: CHURCH of the GENTILES (Rom 16:4); CHURCH of the HOLY ONES (1 Cor 14:33); SPOTLESS BRIDE (Rev 19:7; Eph 5:25-27); CHURCH of the FIRST-BORN (Heb 12:22); CHURCH, HOUSEHOLD of GOD, PILLAR & BULWARK of the TRUTH (1 Tim 3:15); Church in Pergamum, Church in Thyatira, Church in Sardis, etc. Are you now implying that these names are not simply generic descriptions but actually proper names of the Church?

    40.) Secondly, granting that the Church had many official names, it is still very odd that you restricted your choice to only one name, that is, “Church of God.” By the way, who gave you the authority to exclude the other “official names” from the (official) name of your group MCGI? The great contradiction here is that MCGIP itself, the official name of your group, is never mentioned in the Bible at all. Let me borrow your own words: “In this case, unofficial is the antonym, and variously may mean informal, unrecognized, or unfamiliar to authorities, or unacknowledged. That rightly fits to [MCGI].”

    41.) Thirdly, your reference to “Church authorities” is never limited to those people mentioned in the Bible. The apostles ordained their successors, the Bishops, and these bishops also ordained their successors, and so on and so forth. All of them were and are Church authorities. Since Ignatius of Antioch and other bishops are considered Church authorities, why did you not accept the name that they used and acknowledged as the official name of the Church, namely, “Catholic Church?”

    ReplyDelete
  32. 13
    BIBLICAL CHURCH IS “ONE,” “HOLY,” “CATHOLIC”, “APOSTOLIC,” “ROMAN”
    M.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    In this case, unofficial is the antonym, and variously may mean informal, unrecognized, or unfamiliar to authorities, or unacknowledged. That rightly fits to CARC [catholic, apostolic, roman church].

    MANNY CRUZ:
    42.) You are saying that CATHOLIC, APOSTOLIC, ROMAN, Church is unofficial, according to your definition. You may as well complete your vocabulary by including the terms ONE and HOLY, because the Catechism describes the Church as ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, APOSTOLIC, and ROMAN CHURCH. Are you sure these terms are UNBIBLICAL or UNOFFICIAL?

    43.) Well, let us see.

    a.) ONE. Did Christ build many Churches or just ONE CHURCH? In Mat 16: 18 Jesus said he will “build my Church,” and not “my Churches.” In Jn 17:21, Jesus said “that they may all be one”; and in Eph 4:1-6 Paul refers to the Church as having one Body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God. No doubt, one of the true characters of Christ’s Church is its being ONE. What about MCGIP, do you describe it as ONE? If not, why not? How many splintered groups have emerged from Felix Manalo to Nicolas Perez to Levita Gugulan to Eli Soriano and to Willie Santiago so far?

    b.) HOLY. Is the Church Holy? Definitely. In Eph 5:25-27 Paul describes the Church as “without spot or wrinkle…that she might be HOLY and without blemish”; In Romans 11:16 Paul also describes that Church as HOLY by virtue of its being a branch of a HOLY ROOT which is Jesus; In 1 Pet 1:16, we are exhorted to “be holy, because [God] is holy.” Now, do you call MCGI as a Holy organization? If not, why not? What is so wrong about calling your “church” as the ONE, HOLY, MCGIP?

    c.) CATHOLIC. This word, as you have known already, means UNIVERSAL. The Church is Universal in a two-fold way:

    i.) “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole”;
    ii.) according to its mission for the whole of humanity.

    When we combine these two ideas for what we meant by “UNIVERSAL,” we get the notion that the Church possesses the FULLNESS of the TRUTH (cf. 1 Tim 3:15), and the FULLNESS of the MEANS of SALVATION (cf. Acts 13:47), because Christ is in her (cf. Eph 5:23, 25; Col 1:18). Furthermore, this FULLNESS is being offered for ALL PEOPLE and for ALL TIMES (1 Tim 2:4; Ti 2:11; Mat 28:18-20). The Church’s full mission is intended for the whole of humanity, for every nation, race, people, and tongue (cf. Rev 7: 9). Not only that, the mission of the Church covers both HEAVEN and EARTH in a truly COSMIC way (Eph 1:10, 22). Thus, the mission of the Church is truly UNIVERSAL or CATHOLIC. Now, what is so wrong in calling your “church” as ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, MCGIP?

    d.) APOSTOLIC. Jesus Christ commissioned the apostles to teach, preach, make disciples, etc. The Church began with the twelve apostles as its foundation (Rev 21:14; Eph 2:19-20; Mat 16:18; 1 Pet 2:5). Its mission is sustained and carried out through time by faithfully handing on the deposit of faith by way of an unbroken line of APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION which is preserved ONLY in the Episcopate of the Catholic Church. (See Acts 1:20, 26/ Acts 14:13 /Acts 11:21 / 2 Tim 1:6-7; 2:1-2 / Ti 1:5 / Isa 22:21-22).

    So, did Eli Soriano receive his “apostolic authority” from someone endowed with true apostolic succession? Nicolas Perez laid hands on him. But who laid hands on Nicolas Perez? Felix Manalo? And before Manalo, who? Eli Soriano’s “legitimacy,” if ever we can call it that, clearly stops there. Therefore, Eli Soriano cannot claim a true apostolic succession (1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6) and he was definitely not SENT by the Church (Rom 10:15; Acts 8: 14-17; Acts 6:3-6; Acts 13:1-3; Acts 15:22, 25, 27). He alone sent himself without a mandate from the true Church (Acts 15:24). Now, if you still insist that your “church” is truly APOSTOLIC, what is so wrong in calling it ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC MCGIP?

    ReplyDelete
  33. PRIMACY OF THE ROMAN CHURCH

    N.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    I certainly believe that God is the highest authority to follow. Primacy is owned by God, not of Rome. (1 Chronicles 29:11)

    MANNY CRUZ:
    44.) I always agree with every Bible passage that you quoted. But your interpretation of it is off tangent most of the time. You are upholding the primacy of God with an intention of downplaying the primacy of the Church Rome. The primacy of the Church of Rome flows from the primacy of God who chose Peter as head of the apostles and its bishop. Peter was once the Bishop of Rome. And let me tell you this: some of the truth of the faith that you have accepted as a Christian somehow trace their way back to the Church of Rome. Why? The answer is simple. It is the faith of the Church of Rome that is heralded throughout the world (Romans 1:7), and that world would eventually include Apalit Pampanga, Philippines.

    45.) The primacy of the Church of Rome is also testified to by the early Church Fathers. We already mentioned Ignatius of Antioch in the 2nd century. He said that the Roman Church “presides in Charity” (see St Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Rom. l, l; Apostolic Fathers, ll/2, 192) According to Col 3:14, charity is the “bond of perfection.” Another Church Father, St. Irenaeus, confirmed this unifying role of the Church of Rome: “FOR WITH THIS CHURCH, BY REASON OF ITS PRE-EMINENCE, THE WHOLE CHURCH, THAT IS THE FAITHFUL EVERYWHERE, MUST NECESSARILY BE IN ACCORD.” (cf. St Irenaeus, Adv. Haeres. 3, 3, 2: PG 7/1, 849.)

    46.) The Church of Rome, which presides in charity, naturally becomes the focal point of Church unity (Eph 4:2-3) and leadership. That’s why the Church is described as ROMAN. May we now call your sect as the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, APOSTOLIC, ROMAN MCGIP?

    47.) But, the big question here is: how does your sect historically connect to the Church of Rome that “presides in charity” and endowed with “pre-eminence,” in harmony to which guarantees authenticity of apostolic doctrines? Since MCGIP is de facto disconnected to the focal point of Church Unity that is the Church of Rome, how can you guarantee that your teachings are in accordance with authentic Christian message? In response to this serious question, surely you will just fall back on your unbiblical principle of Sola Scriptura and then say “everything that we teach is biblical and therefore authentic!”
    15
    O.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    St. Paul wrote teachings under the commandment of the highest authority, not under any Pope in Rome. (1 Corinthians 14:37)

    MANNY CRUZ:
    48.) The first part of your statement is fine, the second is problematic. No doubt Paul writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but he didn’t just go about preaching all by himself right away (as some founders of false religions do.) Paul was baptized (Acts 9:15-19) under the authority of the Church that was headed by Peter, the first Pope. After his conversion, Paul then waited three long years before going up to Jerusalem to confer with Peter (Gal 1:18), then waited another 14 years to confer again with Peter and the Apostles (Acts 15; Gal 2:1). Paul works always under the authority of the Church (Act 13:2-3; Gal 2:9) in obedience to God, who is the highest authority of all.

    ReplyDelete
  34. 16
    HK’S WEIRD FALLACY

    P.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    It can be read in the scriptures, including St. Paul’s writings, the term Church of God. Apostles’ writings were written under the commandment of the highest authority; therefore, the term Church of God was written upon following the highest authority making it official.
    In this way, it is safe to believe that the term Church of God is the official name of the church, not Catholic Apostolic Roman Church.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    49.) Let me clarify this point for you Heavens Knight. You really upheld two different significations of the word “official.” The first one is quite nebulous. As you said, it is based on your reading of Psalm 119:160. The second one is more appropriate, according the meaning that employ to designate CARC as the official (or proper) name for the Catholic Church. But the deplorable thing about this is that you are jumping from one meaning to another, even as you are confusing the two meanings in themselves. You applied the second meaning to CARC to discredit it as a proper name; then you used the nebulous meaning to support your claim that “Church of God” is a proper name. This may not be obvious to you, but this kind of argument is a weird kind of FALLACY OF MISAPPROPRIATION.

    ReplyDelete
  35. 16
    HK’S WEIRD FALLACY

    P.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    It can be read in the scriptures, including St. Paul’s writings, the term Church of God. Apostles’ writings were written under the commandment of the highest authority; therefore, the term Church of God was written upon following the highest authority making it official.
    In this way, it is safe to believe that the term Church of God is the official name of the church, not Catholic Apostolic Roman Church.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    49.) Let me clarify this point for you Heavens Knight. You really upheld two different significations of the word “official.” The first one is quite nebulous. As you said, it is based on your reading of Psalm 119:160. The second one is more appropriate, according the meaning that employ to designate CARC as the official (or proper) name for the Catholic Church. But the deplorable thing about this is that you are jumping from one meaning to another, even as you are confusing the two meanings in themselves. You applied the second meaning to CARC to discredit it as a proper name; then you used the nebulous meaning to support your claim that “Church of God” is a proper name. This may not be obvious to you, but this kind of argument is a weird kind of FALLACY OF MISAPPROPRIATION.

    ReplyDelete
  36. HK’S “UNBIBLICAL” DESIGNATION OF APOSTLES

    Q.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    It is not our problem if Manny believes that apostles were not called officials or, we should say, persons of authority.
    Manny said: Well, this adds to the many careless remarks from you. The apostles were never called “officials” or “authority of the Bible.”
    He may not call them officials but indeed, they are persons of authority.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    50.) It is a big problem when you say one thing and then mean another thing. To say that the apostles were “persons of authority” does not negate the fact that you carelessly called the apostles by an UNBIBLICAL designation of “officials” and “authority of the Bible.”
    18
    ON CHURCH AUTHORITY AND HK’S CONFUSION OF IT

    R.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    Our Lord Jesus Christ told apostles that those who don’t listen to them will also mean not listening to the highest authority. (Luke 10:16)
    He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    51.) The apostles were given the authority to teach and to preach, among other functions. We call that the magisterial authority of the Church. Remember, it was the apostles who were given such an authority, and they passed on this authority to their successors, the bishops. Paul says in 2 Tim 2:2: “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” And he told his brothers in the faith to “hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by oral statement or by a letter of ours.” (2 Thes 2:15). We also called this the unbroken line of Apostolic Succession (see also Acts 1:20, 26; 14:13; 11:21; Isa 22:21-22). Paul also insisted to guard this faith (2 Tim 1:6) and never to deviate from it (Gal 1:8-9).

    52.) Here’s one big challenge for you: show to us that Bro Eli got his teaching and preaching authority from one of the successors of the bishops that can trace his authority all the way back to the times of the apostles. If you can prove that, Bro Eli would no doubt cloak his teaching with apostolic authority. If not, then he would just be one of those false teachers roaming (or hiding) around.

    53.) Romans 10:14-15 says, “…How can they hear without SOMEONE to preach? And how can people preach unless they are SENT?” In the context in which Paul was speaking here, who do you think should do the SENDING process? Can anybody who happens to read and memorized the Bible confer upon himself the apostolic authority to preach? Can an individual, by his own authority, declare himself as being SENT (and found his own sect?)

    54.) If you read your Bible carefully, especially in Acts (see Acts 8: 14-17; Acts 6:3-6; Acts 13:1-3; Acts 15:22, 25, 27) you will realize that the SENDER is not an individual human being, but a corporate body, the Church, in accordance with the Holy Spirit.

    55.) Now, we read about those who “went out without a mandate” from the apostles, who have “upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind” (Acts 15:24). In other words, these people SENT THEMSELVES. They are their own sender. And look at what they have accomplished: only confusion and disunity. Again, Eli Soriano, by his own authority, sent himself “without a mandate” from the successors of the apostles. And look at what he accomplished: further divisions and strife. Just ask Felix Manalo et al, Nicolas Perez, Levita Gugulan, and most recently, Willie Santiago.

    ReplyDelete
  37. HK’S SOPHISTRY: DESPERATELY GABBING AT STRAWS

    S.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    Manny may assert his argumentum ad ignorantium saying there is no official name because Paul didn’t say it. We must not then accept his refutations for he also didn’t say that it is his official answer. It is a waste of time arguing against someone who doesn’t have official belief. He has no official belief because he didn’t say it. That is if we will follow Manny’s argument.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    56.) If Paul did not say that the Church adopted an official name in the manner that the Bishops of Vatican 1 “adopted” CARC as its official name, or so you said, then what made you think that Paul said it or perhaps suggested it? My argument really points to the INSUFFICIENCY, ABSENCE or LACK of evidence for your claim. The fact that Paul and the other apostles did not say anything about it simply attested to that fact. The real fallacy here is that you easily put a claim on something that is not there in the first place.

    T.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    St. Paul didn’t even say it is commanded not to use prohibited drugs. Does it follow, believing Manny’s argument, such drugs are allowed? He may not read it but with God’s help we can prove it Biblically that it is prohibited to use marijuana, shabu etc.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    57.) You are certainly over-extending my argument to its unwarranted end, which is actually a form of false argumentation on your part. Again, if Paul himself did not say it, then why did you? Why put your own words into Paul’s mouth?

    ReplyDelete
  38. MORE STRAWS FOR HK

    U.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    Manny also believes that it is not an official name for it was not capitalized.
    Manny said: Paul did not say that “church of God” is an official name! (It’s not even capitalised! Didn’t you see it?) No, Paul never said it.
    Sorry to say, this assertion could not be convincing. For one thing, the word God has a capital letter, it is a proper name. How about the name Church of God in the Bible? Is it true that it is not a proper, official or technical name for it was not been capitalized as it was written in the Bible? This is in the presumption that the term Church of God is an official name if it is capitalized.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    58.) You are putting the cart before the horse. You made it sound like I mainly argued from the stand point of pure grammar, even as you made a big issue out of a side comment. Didn’t you see the parentheses that enclosed my statement there? That means that with or without that statement, my argument still stands. So why do you make a big fuzz out of a side comment? Don’t you have any other better counter argument?


    V.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    Let us then follow Manny’s assertion. Let us read versions of Bible that most Catholics use – the Bibliyang Katoliko. (II Corinthians 1:1)
    Si Pablo na apostol ni Cristo Jesus sa kalooban ng Diyos, at ang kapatid na si Timoteo, Sa Iglesia ng Dios na nasa Corinto at sa lahat ng banal na nasa buong Acaya.
    Let us also read in the Spanish Bible, a version of a Bible that most Catholics use.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    59.) What does it prove when a passage contains a capitalized translation of “church of God”? Do you think that this would make Paul agree with you regarding your claim that the church “adopted” or “got” an official name? Let me tell you that it only proves that a translator capitalized a phrase, and that’s all there is to it.


    W.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    We can notice from these verses of a Bible commonly used by most Catholics, the term Iglesia de Dios (Church of God) was capitalized. But Manny, a Catholic, says it was not even capitalized. Of course, we don’t need to mention him that he should wear a pair of reading glasses and read Catholic Bibles.

    MANNY CRUZ:
    60.) You are misleading your readers. I was quoting from your statement and not from any Catholic translations that you just brought up recently. In your statement, there was no capitalization of the phrase “church of God.” And so I pointed that out to you. You don’t have to twist the truth just to be able to say something in response to my argument. Don’t blame your readers if they will see that you are just grabbing at straws at this point.

    ************************
    X.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    Anyway, we don’t blame him for he really cannot prove that apostles believe the church has no official name. That belief doesn’t exist in the Bible. It is just our opponent’s belief, not of apostles. He believes of something that doesn’t exist. Thus, like his saying “You do not prove that something does not exist.”

    MANNY CRUZ:
    61.) You are now getting tricked by your own imagination. You simply repeated an assertion that stems from a scientifically invalid question: proving the non-existence of something. It is clear however that you were the one who believed in something that did not exist, namely, official name of the Church in the Bible.

    62.) But ponder this: after more than 2000 years of history, how come nobody else (but you) has found an official name for the Church? In 1870, some bishops “invented” a name for the Church (CARC), but it was not implemented as they wished. More than a century later, Eli Soriano “invented” his own version of “official name,” that is, MCGIP.

    ReplyDelete
  39. HK’S CONVOLUTED TAUTOLOGY

    Y.) HEAVENS KNIGHT:
    We can also say “You cannot prove Biblically a belief that is not written in the Bible.”

    MANNY CRUZ:
    63.) What you said above perhaps would best sum up the nature of your entire position. But your statement was actually a TAUTOLOGY! It is a NEEDLESS REPITITION OF AN IDEA.

    64.) Because, in your understanding, “what you cannot prove biblically” is the same as “not written in the Bible.” Other ways of putting it would be: it is unbiblical because is not biblical (not written in the Bible)! Or, “It’s in the Bible because it is Biblical!” Or “It is found in the Bible because it is written in the Bible!” Anyway, just allow your readers to laugh their hearts out!

    65.) But a deeper analysis of your statement above reveals that you got the whole thing totally messed up. Here’s why:

    66.) What you say you can prove biblically (e.g. “official name”), in reality you cannot prove; and what you say you cannot prove biblically (i.e., a belief not written in the Bible), in reality you can prove. Example: the idea that “the bible is the Word of God” is not written in the Bible, and yet you believed it and you can prove it “biblically”. On the other hand, the words “official name of the church” is not written in the Bible, you have not proven it yet you believed it, boldly insisting that it is biblical when it is clearly not.

    67.) Having said all these, may we now say that HEAVENS KNIGHT can truly handle the TRUTH by NOT DELETING this post?

    ReplyDelete
  40. Dapat kong open minded ka Read Me, mag READ KA rin muna ng mga standard reference books para malaman mo ang history ng Catholic Church that existed for more than 2000 years since Jesus Christ founded the church in 33AD wherein he promised that he will guide always until the end of age (Mat 16:18)

    ReplyDelete
  41. DEAR BRO. MANNY CRUZ,

    Thank you very much for your wonderful defense of the faith. Im in vacation now and my use of the internet is very limited. I hope to be able to post your exchange on the main wall of this Blog soon.

    God bless you.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Fr Abe:

    Thank you very much for your kindness. Have a grace-filled vacation. Please include me in your mass intentions! I'll pray for you too!

    ReplyDelete
  43. [Fr. Abe, panu po naging Monsignor si Monsignor Luiz Marques Barbosa? Paano nya po nagawa ito sa loob mismo ng simbahan? Paano po ba mapipigilan ng Simbahang Katoliko ang mga ganitong Pari?]

    Dear Anonymous, naging Msgr. sya dahil siguro hindi alam ng mga opisyal ng simbahan ang mga maling ginagawa niya. Subalit ng ito ay matuklasan ay pinatawan sya ng kinauukulang investigation at kaparusahan.

    Para mo na ring tinanong sa akin kung bakit naging masama si Judas Iscariote gayong si Cristo mismo ang nagturo sa kanya. Bakit naging makasalanan si Adan gayong ang Dios mismo ang nakakausap nya sa Hardin? Ang nagkasala ang dapat managot sa kanyang pagkakamali at kasamaang ginawa. Hindi ito dapat isisi sa Dios at sa Iglesia.

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  44. [Fr. Abe, tanung ko lang po kung anu masasabe nyo about this? Medyo nakakalungkot po kasi yung reactions ng iba po nating fellow Catholics]

    Talagang nakakalungkot na may mga ganyang kasalanang nagaganap sa ating Iglesia. HIndi lamang sa atin kundi sa ibat ibang grupo ng relihiyon din. Yan ay bunga ng kasalanan at naganap ito dahil ang mga taong sangkot ay hinayaan nilang magapi sila ni Satanas.

    Subalit ang higit na nakararami ng ating mga pari at madre at mga lider ng Iglesia ay buong giting sa paglilingkod sa Panginoon.

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  45. Yes you definitely correct Father, hindi naman sinabi ng simbahan na ang kanyang mga pari at madre ay malinis, Jer.5:26 For among my people are criminals.
    Thanks a lot Fr. Abe sa pagtatanggol and please pray for my son who is on his first year in the seminary. . .

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  46. Fr. Abe, maraming salamat po sa pagpapalinaw nyo sa isipan ko tungkol sa sex abuse scandal ng simbahan Katoliko. Tama po kayo, naniniwala ako po ako na dapat mag-focus tayo sa 99.9% na mga pari at madre na naglilinkod sa ating Panginoon at sa kanilang mga kapwa instead of sa 0.01%
    na hinayaang na magapi sila ni Satanas. Thanks po ulit Fr. Abe!!

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  47. Welcome Dear Bro. Anonymous. Please let us pray for the Church, for the Pope and for our priests.

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  48. [magandang araw po father
    itatanongko lang po,bakit magkakontra ang 1 cro 21:1-... at 2 sam 24:1-... pakipaliwanag naman ang mga ibig sabihin,pls hihintayin kopo ang sagot n'yo,salamat po]

    Dear Anonymous,

    This is just a 'seeming' contradiction. The two textx were written years or decades apart from each other and for sure they were written by different Biblical writers. Even though the story that they want to present is similar or one and the same event the writers presented them with different perspective or theological viewpoint.

    That of the Book of Samuel presented David's census of Israel as regards the king's relation with God... thus the divine command for the census. On the other hand, the Book of Chronicles presented it on the perspective of the inner weakness of David wherein he succumbed to the temptation of Satan.

    The two could be reconciled. Look again in 2 Sam 24:1 God is already angry when He ordered the census.Why was the Lord God angry? Because David succumbed to the temptation of Satan. David wanted to census the people because he was lacking in faith and trust that the Lord can give him victory in battle even with very few soldiers. In fact in 2 Sam 24:10 King David categorically asked God's forgiveness for his sin. It means that the census was primarily motivated by David's sin which is an effect of Satan's temptations.

    I hope I was able to clarify this one a little bit.

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  49. PADRE, NAKALIMUTAN NIYO PO YATA YUNG TANONG NI READ ME...

    BAKA MAMAYA EH MAGPUNTA SA IBANG BLOG YUN AT SABIHIN EH HINDI NIYO SIYA SINAGOT...

    (ISAGANI DURANGO)

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  50. OK. HERE IS MY RESPONSE TO THAT QUESTION:

    [I just want to ask how can you prove that the Catholic church is still the original church or the same and identical church with the 1st century church?]

    WE CAN PROVE THAT OURS IS THE TRUE CHURCH BECAUSE OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS:

    1. IT IS THE FIRST EVER CHRISTIAN CHURCH, THE ONE FOUNDED BY THE LORD JESUS IN ISRAEL AND THE ONE SPREADS BY THE APOSTLES FROM JERUSALEM TO ROME AND BEYOND.

    2. IT IS THE CHURCH THAT DETERMINED THE BIBLE. IT DECIDED ON THE CANON, DIVIDED IT INTO OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT, GAVE IT THE NAME "BIBLIA" AND PUT CHAPTERS AND VERSES INTO IT.

    3. IT PRESERVES THE APOSTOLIC FAITH HANDED ON BY THE LORD JESUS TO HIS APOSTLES.

    [Regarding the beliefs?]

    OUR BELIEFS ARE APOSTOLIC IN ORIGIN. HINDI INIMBENTO AT HINDI GALING SA MGA BULAANG PROPETA NA LUMITAW SA MGA HULING PANAHON NA TULAD NI ELLEN GOULD WHITE, CHARLES TAZE RUSSEL, FELIX MANALO, EDDIE VILLANUEVA, MAMA ELI SORIANO AT QUIBOLOY. KAYA NGA WE BELONG TO THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH OF ROME.

    [Nd na ko magpapaligoy ligoy pa.^_^
    What i want an answer from you sir is that post doctrines in the Catholic church with the date it began and the authors of it...]

    YOUR REQUEST IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY. BECAUSE OUR FAITH AS I'VE SAID IS APOSTOLIC IN ORIGIN AND THEREFORE THE DATE OF ORIGIN IS FIRST CENTURY OF CHRISTIANITY. ANG FAITH MO READ ME AY BAGONG IMBENTO LANG DAHIL 1914 LANG NAG-UMPISANG MANLOKO NG TAO PARA SA INYONG SEKTA SI FELIX MANALO ANG ANGHEL NA MAY KATAWANG NABULOK AT NAGKAROON NG MGA ANAK DAHIL MAY LIBOG.

    [Then, let us judge if it is so..
    If the beliefs of the catholics nowadays are the beliefs of the 1st century christians...]

    SO BE IT. LET US EXAMINE OUR CATHOLIC DOCTRINES AND YOUR MANALO DOCTRINES AND SEE WHICH IS APOSTOLIC IN ORIGIN. I'M GAME.

    [Godbless po. Tnx.
    i will wait for your answer^_^]

    GOD BLESS YOU DIN.

    YOUR QUESTION IS DROWNED BY YOUR LYING REFUTATIONS AMONG CATHOLIC APOLOGISTS IN THE WEB. WELL, HULI MAN DAW AT MAGALING E NAIHAHABOL DIN. THIS IS MY ANSWER.

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