Madonna and Child by Giotto
Josemaria Lazaro Paulo Jeronimo Martin Carvalho-von verster said...
Hello Father I Have a Question:
A Protestant(born and raised a former catholic)posted on rationalhero.com(a nationalist-secularist website) his scriptural disagreement with the church on contraception,and I quote:
"There is no Biblical precept that supports their stand on contraception. The oft quoted story of Onan is presented in the wrong context. His punishment was not due to the withdrawal of his semen, but due to his selfishness not to fulfill his brotherly duty of continuing his brother’s family".
Is He Right Father?
Thanks
Josemaria
July 7, 2010 7:06 AM
Fr. Abe, CRS said...
Dear Josemaria,
The Story of Onan must be taken in its totality and must not be compartmentalized. Evil act has an intention and practical execution. Selfishness is rooted in the Intention of Onan. But his Evil Act is founded on the fact that he committed withdrawal of his semen. These two comprises a single Immoral Activity of Onan.
Your Protestant friend is downplaying the act itself which is pathetic. For instance, if a person desires to commit rape but he didn't execute it then he is guilty of impurities in thoughts but cannot be held liable for the act of rape. So, if we will only look at the selfishness of Onan without relating it to his actual 'Act of Withdrawal' we are whitewashing the Sin of Onan.
The Catholic Church condemns the selfishness of Onan as well as his Act of Withdrawal.
As you can see, the Moral Standard of your Protestant friend is very shallow. That is why Abortion is legal in Protestant world. It is from them that Abortions and Contraceptions started. Because for them Good Intention is enough to excuse someone from committing evil or immoral actions.
July 7, 2010 8:55 AM
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![ST. JEROME EMILIANI [1486-1537]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6dKQTchkJaA/R0lo013dyBI/AAAAAAAAB_4/XzUAPDESwwQ/s1600/St.+Jerome+in+prayer,+small_1.jpg)
I don't understand why you claimed that "abortion is legal in the Protestant world". There could be a risk in committing falsehood if your unintended message was to imply that abortion is not legal in the "Catholic world". From what I know, abortion is legal in Italy, in Spain, and in France, which are the traditional "Catholic world".
ReplyDeleteRef.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Spain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Italy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_France
It is a fact that Abortion and Contraception originated from Protestant countries where they became legally accepted and promoted. Protestant sects and churches accepted them and in fact, they even accepted on official basis Same-Sex marriage by having OFFICIALLY ordained active homosexuals.
ReplyDeleteTHE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE OTHER HAND OPPOSED ABORTION, CONTRACEPTION AND SAME SEX MARRIAGE THUS MAKING OUR CHURCH THE NUMBER ONE ENEMY OF THE PROMOTERS OF THESE ABOMINATIONS.
Abortion became legal in Spain, in Italy and in France NOT BECAUSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ACCEPTED IT BUT BECAUSE THE PROTESTANTS, THE ATHEISTS, THE AGNOSTICS, THE MASONS, THE COMMUNISTS AND THE NEW AGERS JOINED FORCES TO DEFEAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
In these countries, hundreds of thousands of Catholics are rallying each year to condemn abortions. In Spain, more than a million rally every year to condemn and oppose Abortion policy of anti Catholic Zapatero.
HERE IS THE LIST OF YOUR KIND WHO SUPPORTED ABORTION:
Pro-choice groups:
Liberal and some mainline denominations: In general, these either promote a woman's right to choose an abortion, or are relatively silent on the matter. A number of liberal and mainline Christian and Jewish faith groups and organizations have publicly stated that abortions are sometimes an acceptable option, and SHOULD REMAIN LEGAL. According to lists prepared by The Secular Web and the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, they include, in alphabetic order:
1 American Baptist Churches-USA (see below),
American Ethical Union,
American Friends (Quaker) Service Committee,
American Jewish Committee,
American Jewish Congress,
Central Conference of American Rabbis,
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ),
Council of Jewish Federations,
Episcopal Church (USA),
Federation of Reconstructionist Congregations and Havurot,
Moravian Church in America-Northern Province,
Na'Amat USA,
National Council of Jewish Women,
Presbyterian Church (USA),
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice,
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,
Union of American Hebrew Congregations,
Unitarian Universalist Association,
United Church of Christ,
United Methodist Church,
United Synagogue for Conservative Judaism.
Cf. http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist1.htm
THE PROBLEM WITH YOU IS THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A SINGLE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE FOR YOUR CHURCHES. THUS, DECISIONS ARE MADE INDEPENDENTLY BY EACH GROUP AND MANY OF THEM 'OFFICIALLY' EMBRACED ABORTION, CONTRACEPTION AND SAME-SEX MARRIAGE. INCLUDING BORN AGAIN GROUPS AND YOUR BELOVED BAPTIST CHURCHES. HA, HA, HA...
Oops, Father. As my name implies, I am in fact an atheist... a godless atheist, so like you I also think of the Protestants as, er, misguided. But in fairness to them, the Evangelical movement is progressing quite well in all Catholic countries, particularly in Latin America. In the entire Latin America, social progress is progressing rather well despite the Catholic Church's shrill protestations. Chile has just legalized its divorce (making the Philippines the only country in the entire planet not to have a legal divorce); and Argentina, of course, just legalized its same-sex marriages. Catholicism is retreating, Father.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad to know that you are an atheist. But I doubt it. Bereans people are famous for their lies and deceits. They are pretending to be atheists, orthodox, jew, etc. and from time to time are changing their code name. So, your being an atheist is suspect.
ReplyDelete[But in fairness to them, the Evangelical movement is progressing quite well in all Catholic countries, particularly in Latin America.]
The Catholic Church is progressing very well in Protestant countries like the United States and in Great Britain. We are converting their best of the best thinkers and from a tiny minority we have become the biggest single group in the United States with adult Baptism of about 350,000 a year.
When we lost part of Europe we gained the Latin America. We loose some we win more.
[In the entire Latin America, social progress is progressing rather well despite the Catholic Church's shrill protestations.]
Social progress in those areas occured during the height of Catholic dominations. Mexico and Argentina became prominent countries in the world during their Catholic days. They declined when Mexico became anti-Catholic and martyred our priests and missionaries. YOUR FELLOW ATHEISTS IF YOU REALLY ARE KILLED OUR MEMBERS AND BURNED OUR CHURCHES UNTIL RECENTLY THE PRIESTS IN MEXICO WERE PROHIBITED TO WEAR EVEN THEIR COSSACK AND CLERICAL COLLAR. That is how nice atheists are. They are so kind as to murder the believers of God.
YOUR SO CALLED SOCIAL PROGRESS IS ACTUALLY SUCCUMBING TO THE STUPIDITIES OF COMMUNISTS WHO ARE ATHEISTS LIKE YOU.
[Chile has just legalized its divorce (making the Philippines the only country in the entire planet not to have a legal divorce); and Argentina, of course, just legalized its same-sex marriages.]
THE ATHEISTS COMMUNISM PROMISED TO GIVE CATHOLICISM HER DEATHLY BLOW BUT WHAT HAPPENED WAS THE CONTRARY. COMMUNISM FELL APART INSTEAD. IT WAS VOMITED BY POLAND, RUSSIA ITSELF AND THE EASTERN COUNTRIES AS WELL AS VIETNAM. YOUR ATHEISTIC-COMMUNISM FELL LIKE DOMINOES. HA, HA, HA...
Now, the remnant of the atheistic monster is re-appearing in different form and like the first time it appears to be winning. WELL, WE ARE ONCE AGAIN PREPARING FOR AN ALL OUT WAR WITH YOU AND YOUR LIKES. AND LET US SEE WHAT WILL HAPPEN THEN. WE WERE ALWAYS VICTORIOUS AGAINST YOU. NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE WINNING SOMETHING YOU CAN ALREADY DEFEAT CATHOLICISM. NO, NO, NO... WE ARE READY FOR YOU.
[Catholicism is retreating, Father.]
WE ARE ALWAYS RETREATING FROM TIME TO TIME. WHEN YOUR ANCESTORS THE PAGANS WERE FEEDING OUR ANCESTORS TO THE LIONS IN THE AMPHITEATER OF THE PAGAN ROME WE WERE THOUGHT TO BE FINISHED. BUT GRADUALLY THE PEOPLE CONVERTED TO CATHOLICISM.
DURING THE BARBARIAN INVASIONS THE CHURCH WAS THOUGHT TO BE AT ITS END. YET OUR MISSIONARIES CONVERTED THE BARBARIANS AND TRANSFORED THEM INTO CIVILIZED PEOPLE.
THE SAME STORY DURING THE SOVIET EMPIRE AND IT WILL BE THE SAME TODAY.
WE ARE USED TO RETREAT AND DEFEATS AND WE ARE USED TO VICTORIES AS WELL. ATHEISM IS THE LEAST OF OUR WORRIES BECAUSE IT IS AN EMPTY PHILOSOPHY. IT CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD. WE DON'T NEED YOU BUT YOU NEED US IN ORDER TO HAVE SOMETHING TO DENY.
No, Father Abe, hindi po ako Berean. Teka, papaano mo nalaman na doon ako sa Berean site nanggagaling? Seguro myembro ka doon ano? Ikaw ba si Roman_Cat o si Gordon? Curious!
ReplyDeleteBut I am really an atheist even if you doubted it. The true test of an atheist is the so-called Luke12:10 test: reject tne Holy Spirit and you could not be pardoned even if you change your mind. Well, I therefore reject Him. That's it.
Btw, thanks for your interesting blogs and for your time in responding to my posts.
[No, Father Abe, hindi po ako Berean.]
ReplyDeleteI BELIEVE YOU NOW BECAUSE I'VE BEEN INFORMED THAT YOU WERE EXPELLED FROM BEREANS BECAUSE YOU INSISTED ON DISCUSSING THE PASTOR JUNNY SCANDAL - "L'Affair Pegasus". WELL, THEY ARE LIKE THAT. ONCE THEIR NERVES ARE TOUCHED THEY CRINGED TO THEIR GRAVES.
[Teka, papaano mo nalaman na doon ako sa Berean site nanggagaling? Seguro myembro ka doon ano?]
Because I have a lot of friends active there and of course I was visiting it from time to time especially when I debated Rodimus and Living Grace here in this Blog in a DO or DIE, Credebility Shattering Modes, he, he, he... which ended with Rodimus apologizing for his lies and deceits after he was found out to be IGNORANT of NEW TESTAMENT GREEK but PRETENDING TO BE SO ERUDITE IN IT. In effect, his original Blog closed with his shameful admission. Ha, ha, ha...
Living Grace or John Joseph Ras in real life challenged me in Predestination Debate with assurance that he will teach me proper theology. Ha, ha, ha... the idiot proved to be ignorant of Calvin's Writings as well as that of Augustine and Thomas Aquinas which he claimed to have known thoroughly. Ha, ha, ha... These ignoramus have the courage to run forums despite the fact that they are only making a mockery of their own faith.
[Ikaw ba si Roman_Cat o si Gordon? Curious!]
NO. I AM NOT A MEMBER OF THE BEREANS FORUM. BUT I AM A GOOD FRIEND OF CATHOLIC PHILOSOPHER AND FLEWEN. AND ALSO I AM THE MENTOR OF KAPATAS WHO IS NOW A CATHOLIC APOLOGIST IN HIS OWN RIGHT. KAPATAS IS THE SECONDARY OWNER OF THIS BLOG AND HE HAS SOME MATERIALS POSTED HERE.
[But I am really an atheist even if you doubted it.]
GLAD TO KNOW THAT.
[The true test of an atheist is the so-called Luke12:10 test: reject tne Holy Spirit and you could not be pardoned even if you change your mind. Well, I therefore reject Him. That's it.]
SO LET IT BE THEN IF THAT IS YOUR CHOICE. BUT YOUR QUOTE OR PARAPHRASE OF LUKE 2:10 IS WRONG. THERE IS NO "even if you change your mind" IN THE REAL BIBLE VERSE.
[Btw, thanks for your interesting blogs and for your time in responding to my posts.]
YOU ARE WELCOME AND IT IS MY PLEASURE TO EXCHANGE IDEAS WITH YOUR KIND.
Hey, Father Abe, sumali ka sa bagong Berean forum. Independent ito at hindi kakampi sa lumang Berean. Maraming mababait na Catholics doon. Ito yung website: http://thebereans.bestforumlife.com/forum.htm
ReplyDeleteAbangan ka namin doon. See ya.
Dear Ateo,
ReplyDeleteO thank you for the invitation. The problem brod is my schedule. I am a very busy person and for me running this Blog out of which I am receiving many questions on daily basis is already a sacrifice. Besides, I am a College Chaplain, Station Manager, Radio Host, Professor and Administrator.
Time is so precious to me. For that reason I don't have time to spare for a forum which will surely require a lot out of me. I can't enter in all fora. Let the other Catholic Apologists do their share in other fields.
Thank you for the invitation though.
What are you teaching as a professor?
ReplyDeletePhilosophy, Theology, History and Literature
ReplyDeleteWow, I like History and Literature. Philosophy, not much, except for the logic part which is quite useful.
ReplyDeleteBut Theology? That's just like fictional literature, is it not? :)
Will you please define for me what is fiction and what is literature? What are the reasons why you likened theology to a fictional literature? Is theology a piece of literature?
ReplyDeleteFiction is a literary piece that is not based on actual historical account but is a product of imagination. Literature is a written intellectual work. The Bible is a literary fiction.
ReplyDeleteTheology is a study of God. It is a fiction because God cannot be proven scientifically. He/She can be proven by faith, which is not a scientific test.
The Aesop's Fables were written by Aesop; the Fairy Tales by Hans Christian Andersen; the Old Testament by bored scribes in exile in Babylon; and New Testament by the "apostle" Paul and his imaginative scribes. They are all fictions, but I like the Andersen's Fairy Tales best. :)
[Fiction is a literary piece that is not based on actual historical account but is a product of imagination.]
ReplyDeleteOBVIOUSLY THEOLOGY IS NOT A LITERARY PIECE BUT A STUDY OF GOD. AND THEREFORE YOUR QUESTIONE WHETHER IT IS FICTIONAL IS ILLOGICAL.
[Literature is a written intellectual work.]
THEOLOGY IS NOT A WRITTED INTELLECTUAL WORK AND THEREFORE IT PROVES ALL THEM MORE THAT YOUR QUESTION IS ILLOGICAL.
[The Bible is a literary fiction.]
HA, HA, HA... THAT IS A PRODUCT OF YOUR OWN IMAGINATION. YOU ARE NOT BEING SCIENTIFIC. BECAUSE THE BIBLE IS A COLLECTION OF DOCUMENTS THAT INCLUDES HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS. MOST THOUGH ARE LITERARY EXPRESSIONS OF FAITH AND OTHERS ARE TESTIMONIES OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCES.
UNLESS YOU CAN SCIENTIFICALLY DISPROVE THE HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS AND THE TESTIMONIES YOUR DENIAL IS JUST GARBAGE AND DOES NOT COUNT FOR ANYTHING. FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU WILL CLAIM THAT THE MIRACLE ON THE SEA OF GALILIEE DIDN'T TAKE PLACE, YOU HAVE TO PRESENT TO ME A WITNESS PRESENT ON THE SEA OF GALILEE DURING THE TIME OF JESUS DISPROVING THAT SUCH A STORM AND CALMING OF THE STORM EVER OCCURRED IN THE AREA.
WHAT DO YOU HAVE NOW? YOUR PROTESTATIONS THAT THE BIBLE IS FICTION? HA,HA,HA... THAT'S GARBAGE BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE COMPETENCE TO DENY IT. YOU WERE NOT THERE AND HAVE NOT PRESENTED AN ALTERNATE PROOF TO THE CONTRARY.
[Theology is a study of God. It is a fiction because God cannot be proven scientifically.]
ReplyDeleteI THINK THIS IS THE MOST ILLOGICAL THING THAT I HAVE HEARD FROM YOUR KIND, ATEO OR WHOEVER? THE WORKS OF SHAKESPEARE ARE WORKS OF FICTION YET THEY CAN BE STUDIED, ANALYZED AND BE PROVEN SCIENTIFICALLY. TO SAY THAT SOMETHING IS FICTION BECAUSE IT CANNOT BE PROVEN SICENTIFICALLY IS PATHETIC MANIFESTATION OF YOUR FICTIONAL IMAGINATION. BECAUSE WORKS OF FICTIONS ARE CALLED SUCH BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN SCIENTIFICALLY THAT THEY ARE SUCH 'FICTION'. CINDERELLA IS FICTION BECAUSE IT IS HISTORICALLY PROVEN AS SUCH AND HARRY POTTER IS FICTION BECAUSE THE AUTHOR NEVER CLAIMED IT TO BE TRUE.
NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT OF WHAT GOD IS OR YOU CANNOT FATHOM HIS EXISTENCE IT DOES NOT MAKE THEOLOGY A FICTION LITERATURE. HA, HA, HA...
[He/She can be proven by faith, which is not a scientific test.]
WHAT IS SCIENCE? WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY SCIENTIFIC TEST? DO YOU CONSIDER THE BIG BANG THEORY SCIENTIFIC? HAVE YOU TESTED THE BIG BANG... THE REAL BIG BANG THAT ALLEGEDLY HAPPENED MILLIONS OF YEAR AGO THROUGH YOUR SCIENTIFIC TESTS? HA, HA,HA... THE SCIENTISTS ARE ONLY EXAMINING FEW ROCKS, SOME BONES OF MONKEYS, PICTURES OF GALAXIES FROM HUBBLE TELESCOPES BUT THEY NEVER EVER TESTED AND PROVEN 'REAL' BIGBANG THAT THEY CLAIMED TO HAVE HAPPENED MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO. HA, HA, HA...
LOGIC IS A STUDY OF CORRECT THINKING. IT IS A STUDY. IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY TESTED. THE SAME WITH PYSCHOLOGY. THEOLOGY IS A STUDY OF GOD AND OF ALL BEINGS IN RELATION WITH GOD. THE OBJECT OF THE STUDY IS NON MATERIAL BUT THE METHOD OF STUDY IS SCIENTIFIC.
[The Aesop's Fables were written by Aesop;]
WHO TOLD YOU THAT IT WAS WRITTEN BY AESOP? ARE YOU SURE THAT IT WAS REALLY WRITTEN BY AESOP? WHAT ARE YOUR PROOFS THAT THESE WRITINGS ARE GENUINELY WRITTEN BY A PERSON CALLED AESOP AS CLAIMED IN THE BOOKS TODAY? WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THE CLAIMS OF BOOKS AND AUTHORS ABOUT AESOPS YET YOU DO NOT GIVE THE SAME TRUST IN THE AUTHORS OF THE BIBLE?
[the Fairy Tales by Hans Christian Andersen;]
THE FAIRY TALES OF HANS CHRISTIAN ANDERSEN ARE WRITTEN AS FICTIONAL STORES BY PERSONAL ADMISSION OF THE AUTHOR WHOSE EXISTENCE IS NOT FAR FROM OUR CENTURY. DID THE AUTHORS OF THE GOSPELS WRITE A FAIRY TALE?
[the Old Testament by bored scribes in exile in Babylon;]
OOPS... CAN YOU PROOF TO ME SCIENTIFICALLY THAT THOSE SCRIBES WERE BORED? HAVE YOU SEEN THEM? PROOF PLEASE. I WANT AND I DEMAND SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF THERE BOREDOM. WERE THEY FEELING SLEEPY? WERE THEY COMPLAINING? TO WHOM... TO YOU?
HOW SURE ARE YOU THAT THEY WERE IN BABYLON? WERE THERE NO TEXTS OF THAT KIND PRIOR TO BABYLONIAN EXILES? ARE YOU SURE? HAVE YOU CHECKED ALL THE HEBREW DOCUMENTS PRIOR TO BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY? REALLY? DO HAVE A SCIENTIFIC RECORD OF ALL THOSE MANUSCRIPTS AND SCROLLS BY WHICH YOU CAN PROVE TO US THAT THE OLD TESTAMENT BOOKS WERE WRITTEN IN BABYLON? ISN'T IT SUBVERSIVE TO WRITE THOSE THINGS IN BABYLON RIGHT AT THE NOSE OF THE HEBREW CONQUERORS?
[and New Testament by the "apostle" Paul and his imaginative scribes.]
WHO ARE THOSE SCRIBES? HOW DID THEY BECOME PAUL'S SCRIBES? WERE THEY UNDER HIS PAYROLL? IS PAUL THEIR HIGH PRIEST FOR HIM TO HAVE TEAM OF SCRIBES? OR A GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS? SCIENTIFIC PROOF PLEASE. HE, HE, HE...
[They are all fictions, but I like the Andersen's Fairy Tales best. :)]
I THINK I PREFER THE ATEO'S FAIRY TALE. IT IS UNPROVEN, UNSCIENTIFIC AND UNFOUNDED. MUCH MORE, THE FAIRY TALES OF ANDERSEN ARE LOGICALLY WRITTEN YOURS IS ILLOGICAL.