The Lord Jesus healing the sick
Ateo said...
I am glad of this happy developments on the bishop's health and I wish him many happy and productive years of life.
But attributing his recovery to a miracle is nothing but selective perception. How many bishops died of cancer? All presumably prayed but they died anyway. Even the pope died of a serious disease and almost all Catholics prayed for him in vigils but to no avail. Even as we speak, there are hundreds of good Catholics who will die of cancer in the world. So, why did the bishop thinks he was specially blessed with a cure? That is presumptuous. The only logical conclusion of this happy development is that the body recovers spontaneously (cancer remission) or due to the action of medicine.
If the bishop dies eventually many years from now (as we all will), shouldn't we blame God for it as well? If He gets credited for cures, he should be blamed for un-cured cases, shouldn't he?
September 1, 2010 1:01 PM
Fr. Abe, CRS said...
DEAR ATEO,
GLAD TO HEAR AGAIN FROM YOU. I THOUGHT YOU WOULD NEVER COME BACK AGAIN AFTER YOU DISAPPEARED FROM OUR PREVIOUS EXCHANGE.
[I am glad of this happy developments on the bishop's health and I wish him many happy and productive years of life.]
THANK YOU. HOW NICE OF YOU.
[But attributing his recovery to a miracle is nothing but selective perception.]
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY PERCEPTION? IS YOUR REJECTION OF A MIRACLE BASED ON SCIENTIFIC CONCLUSION OR BASED ON PERCEPTION?
[How many bishops died of cancer?]
OF COURSE. WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE THERE IS NO TEACHING IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT BISHOPS WILL NEVER DIE OUT OF CANCER. SO WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?
[All presumably prayed but they died anyway.]
DEFINITELY NOT ALL BECAUSE THERE ARE BISHOPS WHO DIED OF CANCER WHOM I WAS NOT ABLE TO PRAY FOR DUE TO THE FACT THAT I WAS NOT AWARE OF THEIR PREDICAMENT. SO, YOUR PRESUMPTION IS A LITTLE UNSCIENTIFIC AND UNREASONABLE. IT IS QUITE ILLOGICAL.
THEY DIED. AS WE WERE TAUGHT WHEN WE WERE CHILDREN: ALL HUMAN PERSONS ARE SUBJECT TO DEATH. SO, THEIR DEATH DOES NOT POSIT ANY PROBLEM WITH OUR CATHOLIC FAITH. IN FACT, IT IS EXPECTED.
DEATH IS A NATURAL REALITY IN THE WORLD AND CATHOLICS ACCEPT THAT FACT. SO WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?
[Even the pope died of a serious disease and almost all Catholics prayed for him in vigils but to no avail.]
THE POPE DIED AT THE AGE OF 84. HE LIVED A FRUITFUL AND HAPPY LIFE. HE FOUGHT AGAINTS THE NAZIS DURING HIS TEENAGE LIFE, HE FOUGHT AGAINST THE COMMUNISTS DURING HIS PRIESTHOOD AND BISHOPRIC THEN PLAYED A PIVOTAL ROLE WITH RONALD REAGAN IN BRINGING THAT COMMUNISM TO ITS COLLAPSE IN EASTERN EUROPE DURING HIS PAPACY.
WE PRAYED FOR HIM, YES. BUT, INCLUDED IN THOSE PRAYERS IS THE ACCEPTANCE OF GOD'S WILL IF HE WISHES NOT TO EXTEND POPE JOHN PAUL THE GREAT'S LIFE ON EARTH. IF YOU THINK THAT OUR PRAYERS WERE LIMITED TO PETITIONS PROLONGING HIS LIFE YOU ARE MISTAKEN. THE POPE HIMSELF WROTE THAT HE WAS READY TO DIE. AS WE WERE PRAYING FOR HEALING WE WERE ALSO PRAYING FOR A BLESSED DEATH FOR THE THEN VERY SICK POPE AND FOR HIS ENTRANCE INTO ETERNAL LIFE. THAT IS THE PROBLEM WHEN ONE IS PRETENDING TO BE SCIENTIFICALLY AWARE OF OUR PRAYER INTENTIONS IT REVEALS INSTEAD HIS IGNORANCE OF THOSE SAME INTENTIONS.
EVERY CATHOLIC IS TAUGHT TO BE READY TO WELCOME DEATH WITH COURAGE AND HOPE IN THE LORD.
[Even as we speak, there are hundreds of good Catholics who will die of cancer in the world.]
HA, HA, HA... SO, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH THAT? THAT IS NORMAL FOR US. AMONG ATHEISTS ALSO THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE DYING WITH CANCER. AND WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN?
[So, why did the bishop thinks he was specially blessed with a cure?]
AH... BECAUSE THE BISHOP WAS TOLD THAT HE WAS TERMINALLY ILL AND THAT HIS CANCER HAS SPREAD AND THAT HIS DEATH WAS SURE TO COME AND SUDDENLY IN A WAY THAT YOUR TRUSTED MEDICINE EXPERTS AND IN A MODE UNEXPLAINED BY YOUR BELOVED MEDICINAL SCIENCE THE CANCER AND THE TUMORS DISAPPEARED. HA, HA, HA...
IF YOU HAVE A SCIENTIFIC OR MEDICAL REASONS TO GIVE FOR THAT THEN I EXPECT YOU TO POST IT HERE SO THAT WE CAN CHECK HOW SCIENTIFIC YOUR PROOFS THAT THERE IS NO MIRACULOUS CURE. HA, HA, HA...
[Tha is presumptuous.]
HA, HA, HA... IT IS YOU WHO ARE PRESUMPTUOUS. HA, HA, HA...
THE BISHOP WAS TREATED BY DOCTORS. THEY CLAIMED THAT HIS TUMORS HAS SPREAD AND THE CANCER IS TERMINAL. THEN, HERE COMES OUR ARCHBISHOP ANNOUNCING TO THE WORLD THAT THE TUMORS DISAPPEARED ACCORDING TO THE SAME DOCTORS AND THERE IS NO CANCER AT ALL. HA, HA, HA...
WHAT IS THAT? A CURE. ONLY AN IDIOT WILL CLAIM THAT IT IS NOT A CURE. AND EVERY CURE IS A BLESSING. THAT IS A BLESSED CURE. UNEXPECTED CURE.
THE ARCHBISHOP HIMSELF DIDN'T PRAY FOR CURE. HE WAS READY TO DIE. HE IS JUST WAITING TO CELEBRATE THE 300TH ANNIVERSARY OF OUR LADY OF PENAFRANCIA THIS MONTH OF SEPTEMBER AND THEN HE WILL RETIRE FROM ACTIVE SERVICE. HE WAS READY TO DIE. THEN, SUDDENLY, THERE ARE NO TUMORS AND NO CANCER.
IT IS YOUR PROBLEM TO EXPLAIN IT MEDICALLY AND SCIENTIFICALLY.
[The only logical conclusion of this happy development is that the body recovers spontaneously (cancer remission) or due to the action of medicine.]
HA, HA, HA... THAT IS ILLOGICAL. YOUR CLAIM IS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE CLAIM OF THE DOCTORS. THE DOCTORS ALREADY ANNOUNCED THAT HIS TUMORS HAS GROWN AND HAS SPREAD. IF THE CURE WAS CAUSED BY MEDICINE THEN THERE WILL BE NO SURPRISE BECAUSE THAT WAS EXPRECTED BY DOCTORS. BUT THE DOCTORS THEMSELVES WERE SURPRISED. HA, HA, HA...
WHY DON'T YOU GO TO THOSE DOCTORS AND MAKE A MEDICAL REPORT WITH THEM CLAIMING THAT THE CURE WAS NATURAL AND EXPECTED AND IT WAS THE EFFECT OF MEDICINES. C'MMON. HURRY UP!
ARE YOU AN EXPERT ON CANCER? ARE YOU AN EXPERT CHEMIST ON CANCER-HEALING DRUGS? CAN WE TRUST YOUR PRESUMPTIONS ON THE MATTER?
OUR BISHOP SUBMITTED HIMSELF TO DOCTORS. IF HIS CLAIM CAN BE REFUTED THEN PROVE IT. P-R-O-V-E IT!!! PROVE IT SCIENTIFICALLY AND MEDICALLY. IF YOU CAN'T DO SO THEN I ADVISE YOU TO GO TO HONGKONG AND ASK THE SERVICES OF HONGKONG DOCTORS FOR FREE. THEY WILL BE VERY HAPPY TO ACCOMMODATE YOU. HE, HE, HE...
[If the bishop dies eventually many years from now (as we all will), shouldn't we blame God for it as well?]
DEFINITELY NOT. BECAUSE WE EXPECT EVERY PEOPLE TO DIE ONE BY ONE, AND IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. HA, HA, HA...
[If He gets credited for cures, he should be blamed for un-cured cases, shouldn't he?]
O NO. HE CANNOT BE DISCREDITED FOR DEATH. BECAUSE HE DIDN'T PROMISE IMMORTALITY FOR HIS BELIEVERS HERE ON EARTH. WHAT HE PROMISED US IS ETERNAL LIFE WITH HIM IN HEAVEN AND THAT WE WILL SHARE IN HIS RESURRECTION. INSTEAD, WE SHALL BLAME YOUR FAVORITE SCIENCE FOR BEING INCOMPETENT IN ITS PROMISE TO GIVE CURE TO ALL DESEASES AND TO PROLONG HUMAN LIFE TO ALL.
I EXPECT YOUR MEDICAL REPORT DISPROVING THE CURE OF OUR ARCHBISHOP OR PROVING BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT THAT THE SAID CURE IS CAUSED BY MEDICINES. PLEASE SPECIFY THE MEDICINES AND ITS DOSES FOR EACH TUMOR THAT DISAPPEARED AND FOR EVERY SINGLE CANCER CELL THAT WAS CURED.
September 1, 2010 4:11 PM
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Hi Fr. Abe,
ReplyDeleteI just want to comment on one point presented by Ateo,
[The only logical conclusion of this happy development is that the body recovers spontaneously (cancer remission) or due to the action of medicine.]
When I was having my clinical rotation I was exposed to patients afflicted with various types of cancer, and some of them were already terminally ill. I'll give you a bird's eye view of what a patient with stage 3 or 4 lung cancer is like,
1. Difficulty breathing due to presence of tumor and excessive production of mucous fluid.
2. Pain upon breathing due to edema of lung parenchyma.
3. Invasion of cancers cells to adjacent organs and possible secondary tumor growth.
4. Injury to lung tissue
5. Metastasis of cancer cells to brain, liver etc.
6. hemoptysis
7. Body malaise
These are only few of the worst things that a cancer patient can experience.
With regards to Ateo's statement "body recovers spontaneously (cancer remission) or due to the action of medicine.]", Our human body when afflicted with stage 3 or 4 cancer has no chance of recovering without the aid of medicines the reason for this is that the cancer cells competes with the body's healthy cells in consuming nutrients. And since cancers is more aggressive than our healthy cells it is always one step ahead of our healthy cells. hence spontaneous recovery in stage 3 and 4 cancer is impossible without the aid of medicine.
spontaneous recovery is possible in stage 1 and 2 (rarely), but it does not happen over night. If yesterday you were diagnosed with stage 1 cancer with 3mm tumor you don't wake up the following day with your 3mm tumor gone. How much more for stage 3 or 4 cancer with 5cm above tumor? and with secondary tumors?
Even if you have started Chemotherapy but did not finish the entire cycle it does not guarantee you that your body will recover because chemotherapy is a medicine with cumulative effect (the more doses you get the more effective).
In the Archbishop's claim that his healing is cause by a miracle is plausible. Basing on his case, stage of cancer, disposition of his health and poor compliance to medicine (he did not continue the chemotherapy sessions). I a health professional, basing on the facts presented in the case, conclude that the healing of the Archbishop is indeed and truly is an authentic miracle.
Isahel N. Alfonso, R.N
Dear Fr. Abe,
ReplyDeletePeace be with you…
I would like you to enlighten me about this question?
Is Miracle… a work of Evil? or It is a Divine Grace coming from God?
How do we know if it is a Divine Grace
while Satan can also make a miracle?
Actually this is the common question were Heretics et. al.
said to the Catholic Faithful mostly against Virgin Mary and our Saints…
Salamat po.
He, he, he... thank you very much Bro. Isahel. He, he, he... O that is scientific. Glad to have a Registered Nurse in our company, a graduate of the prestigious Ateneo de Davao at that as well as a first-taker in the Board. God bless you brother Don.
ReplyDeleteDEAR BRO. ENRICO,
ReplyDelete[Peace be with you…]
PEACE BE WITH YOU TOO. LET IT BE IN YOUR SPIRIT.
[I would like you to enlighten me about this question]
OK I WILL TRY MY BEST.
[Is Miracle… a work of Evil? or It is a Divine Grace coming from God?]
MIRACLES ARE DIVINE GRACE FROM GOD. THE DEVIL HAS NO POWER TO MAKE MIRACLES. YOU WILL UNDERSTAND IT WHEN YOU KNOW THE PROPER DEFINITION OF MIRACLE:
"Miracle is an effect produced by God in the bodily universe, outside the order of created nature." [St. Thomas Aquinas, SUMMA THEOLOGICA, Ia, Q.105. Art. 7]
EVERY BEING ACTS ACCORDING TO ITS NATURE. THE ANIMALS ARE ACTING ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITIES PROPER FOR DOGS, CATS, HORSES, ETC. WHILE WE HUMAN PERSONS ARE CAPABLE OF ANIMAL ABILITIES SUCH AS PRODUCING OFFSPRING, LOCOMOTION, ETC. BECAUSE WE HAVE CORPOREAL BODIES.
THE ANGELS TOO ARE ACTING ACCORDING TO THEIR NATURE AS PURE SPIRITS. THEY CANNOT DO THINGS BEYOND THEIR NATURE.
MIRACLES ARE BEYOND THE CREATED NATURE. FOR INSTANCE, THE WATERS OF THE SEA ARE BY NATURE GATHERED INTO THE SEA, BUT WHEN A GROUP OF PEOPLE WANTED TO CROSS THAT SEA AND IT SUDDENLY PARTED TO ACCOMMODATE THE NEEDS OF THAT GROUP THEN IT IS A MIRACLE. IF THE WATER LEFT THE SEA IN A TSUNAMI OR TIDAL WAVES CAUSED BY VOLCANIC ERUPTION ON THE SEA BEDS THEN IT IS OF NATURAL CAUSE OR BECAUSE OF A GREAT STORM. CANCER CELLS ARE BY NATURE SPREADING. THE MEDICINES CAN CONTAIN IT FOR A WHILE BUT SOON IT WILL SPREAD NATURALLY. IN THE CASE OF THE ARCHBISHOP IT INDEED SPREAD TO THE LEVEL THAT IS BEYOND THE POWER OF MODERN MEDICINE TO STOP. THEN SUDDENLY, THEY DISAPPEARED UNEXPECTLY AND FOR NO REASON AT ALL. THAT IS BEYOND THE ORDER OF NATURE. THE CANCER CELLS ACTED IN A MANNER THAT IS BEYOND THE ORDER OF ITS NATURE.
[How do we know if it is a Divine Grace
while Satan can also make a miracle?]
WE KNOW THAT IT IS DIVINE GRACE BY THE VERY NATURE OF THE MIRACLE. IF WHAT HAD HAPPENED IS BEYOND OR ABOVE NATURE THEN ONLY GOD CAN DO IT. SECOND IF THE EFFECTS OF MIRACLES ARE GENUINELY GOOD AND NOT ILLUSORY THEN IT IS COMING FROM GOD.
SATAN CANNOT MAKE A MIRACLE. ST. THOMAS CLEARLY EXPLAINED THAT IN SUMMA THEOLOGICA, Ia, Q. 110, Art. 4.
INDEED, ORDINARY FOLKS ARE USING THE TERM 'MIRACLES' FOR THE WORKS OF MAGICIANS, OR FOR THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL OR ON THINGS THAT THEY CANNOT EXPLAIN SUCH AS THE U.F.O's ETC. BUT THEY ARE NOT STRICTLY MIRACLES BECAUSE THE DEVIL AND THE FALLEN ANGELS WERE ONLY DOING WHAT IS WITHIN THE REAL OF THEIR NATURAL ABILITES AND TALENTS.
THE DEVIL BEING A PURE SPIRIT CAN DO THINGS BEYOND THE REASONING OR ABILITIES OF MAN BUT THAT EXTRAORDINARY POWER IS NATURAL TO THE ORDER OF ANGELS OR PROPER TO ANGELIC NATURE.
ONLY GOD CAN DO MIRABLE IN THE REAL SENSE OF THE WORD BECAUSE GOD IS THE CREATOR AND PROVIDER OF ALL THINGS. THE CREATOR OF ALL IS NOT PART OF THE CREATED BEING, HE IS BEYOND IT. THEN, HE IS THE ETERNAL LAW MAKER OF THE UNIVERSE. HE CAN SUSPEND THE COURSE OF NATURE OR THE LAW OF NATURE WITHOUT DESTROYING IT. THE SUPREME LAWMAKER HAS THE POWER TO SUSPEND HIS OWN LAW OR EVEN TO ABOLISH IT IF HE WISHES TO DO SO. THUS, EVEN THOUGH THE STORM RAGES GOD CAN COMMAND IT TO STOP FOR THAT INSTANCE WITHOUT NECESSITATING TO DO THE SAME FOR ALL STORMS.
AS GOD PRESERVES THE NATURAL ORDER OF CREATED BEING AS THE DIVINE PROVIDENCE, HE CAN ALSO SUSPEND IT AS HE WILL BY HIS ALMIGHTY POWER. THAT IS WHY MIRACLES ARE RARE. IT IS NOT FOR ALL. IF ALL CANCER STRICKEN ARE BEING CURED THEN IT IS ALREADY THE PATTERN OR ORDER OF NATURE.
[Actually this is the common question were Heretics et. al.
said to the Catholic Faithful mostly against Virgin Mary and our Saints…]
IT'S ALRIGHT. THOSE HERETICS ARE FOND OF ATTACKING OUR FAITH AS A MANIFESTATION OF THEIR HATRED WITHIN THEMSELVES.
[Salamat po.]
WELCOME.