The Apostles with Mary, praying after Ascension
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "PANALANGING PAULIT-ULIT, LABAG BA SA BIBLIA?":
Anonymous said…
may i comment on here, i hope it will posted and not be ingnored. heres my comment:
[Comments are welcome here as long as they are respectful and are made in the spirit of truth. Your comments are not ignored.]
Anonymous said…
First and foremost, we should know the meaning of the word “prayer/s” in the Bible. The Bible says:
(Php 4:6) Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
(Php 4:7) And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
So, prayers according to St. Paul is a REQUEST to God with thanksgiving. Jesus says to his apostles, whatever they will ask to God in his (Jesus) name, God will give it to them.
[Prayer of REQUEST or SUPPLICATION is only one type or kind of prayer in the Bible. And there are many types of prayer though. So your view of prayer is severely limited to one kind only and doesn’t do justice to all the others taught in the Bible. I am afraid that your view of prayer – as one merely of request or supplication – is very transactional. While in itself is not wrong, as in fact it too is taught in the Bible, singular emphasis on it results in lopsided relationship with God. You pray because you want something from Him. The focus is more on what you get from that relationship – and not what you give.]
Anonymous said…
(Joh 16:23) And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
(Joh 16:24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
To summarized, prayer is a request and asking something to God with thanksgiving, in Jesus name.
[The Bible verses you cited are all beautiful and the Catholic Church fulfills them even long before your new church was established. However, your summary that prayer is only request and asking something from God is incomplete and inaccurate. That is a very self-centered, if not selfish, view. It has to be balanced by other forms of prayer taught by the Bible. Adoration, praise, thanksgiving, meditation and contemplation. The Catholic Church practices all these forms. It seems that your church has not taught you these gauging from your limited perspective on prayer].
Anonymous said…
Jesus taught us how to pray.
(Mat 6:9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
(Mat 6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
(Mat 6:11) Give us this day our daily bread.
(Mat 6:12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
(Mat 6:13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
[The Catholic Church, as well as early Christians (the Didache) pray the Our Father often. It is known as the Lord’s prayer. We pray it because the Lord commands us in Matthew 6:9, “Let this then be your prayer: Our Father in heaven …” (Bible in Basic English).]
Anonymous said…
Above manner, I have not seen any repetition. But if you’re going to pray this per se, same and same regardless of cases, I believe that is repetition.
[As you said it rightly, that is just your belief. And so what if that is repetition? Those are the words of the Lord Jesus. Can we improve on the words of the Savior Himself? I don’t think so. The Lord’s Prayer is a thoroughly complete form of prayer because it possesses all kinds – adoration, praise, thanksgiving, supplication, etc.
It’s not the repetition of the words that counts. It’s not how we repeat it that matters. It’s how we MEAN it that is important. Each time it is prayed, regardless of the cases, it acquires a different meaning because, being the inspired words of the Lord, it’s richness is inexhaustible.
Jesus is our master in prayer, our teacher. When He gave us that prayer, we take His word for it. We don’t presume to know better than Him and certainly we are never arrogant to claim that we can have a better version of His words. We cannot improve on the words of Our Savior.]
Anonymous said…
Hail Mary and The Creed is not a prayer but story telling.
[Again, your limited view of prayer is manifest. What’s wrong with story-telling? You gotta produce a verse that prohibits it. Mind you, story-telling is another form of prayer. Don’t you think so? If I pray and tell God what happened to me during the day, am I not telling Him a story? If I reveal to God in prayer my hurts and frustrations and tell Him how it went, would it not be telling a story? Would God begrudge me if I tell Him stories? He is a loving Father and He definitely delights in the stories of His children. I wonder why your pastors don’t teach you that. They are shortchanging you.
Let’s take the Hail Mary. You call it story-telling? That’s an inaccurate description, borne perhaps by your anti-Catholic prejudice and bias. Nevertheless, let me tell you something about Hail Mary.
The Hail Mary consists of two parts. The first part is a recitation of Scripture. “Hail [Mary], full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Lk. 1:28). “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb [Jesus]” (Lk. 1:42). These are inspired words of Scripture. When we recite it, we ponder on these words found in the Word of God. Is recitation and meditation of the Word of God outlawed in your Church? If not, why then condemn the Hail Mary, especially its first part ?
The second part of the Hail Mary is merely asking Mary to pray for us. That is a request for intercessory prayer. Is intercessory prayer banned by the Bible? I don’t think so.
So, there you have the Hail Mary! Far from story-telling, it is a recitation and meditation of God’s Holy Word and a request for Mary, an eminent Christian, to pray for us – an intercessory prayer.
What about the Creed? It is not storytelling but our profession of Faith, as St. Paul instructs us, “let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering” (Heb. 10:23). With the Creed, Catholics are in “one faith” in which with “the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:10). St. Jude tells us to “contend for the faith that is once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). The faith that is once and for all delivered to the saints may be found in the Apostles Creed.
The Creed has it’s counterpart in the Shema of the Old Testament People of God: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord Our God is one Lord” (Dt. 6:4). Deuteronomy 26 informs us that the Lord God instructed the Israelites that when they speak to Him, they should narrate the wondrous works He has done for them (Dt. 26:5-9). Read the verse for yourself. Then you’d realize that that’s story-telling precisely.
Christians on the other hand recite the twelve articles of their Faith contained in the Apostle’s Creed. One of the earliest creedal formulations is found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 which now forms part of the Apostle’s Creed. All the twelve articles of faith found in the Creed are Biblical. They are the synopsis of what the New Testament people of God believe and proclaim in which “we all come in the unity of the faith” (Eph. 4:13).]
Anonymous said…
The worst is, members of catholic give the burden to Mary to pray for them now and forever. It is our obligation to pray to God.
[I want to pity you for your gross ignorance of Scripture here. Is it ever a burden to pray? Is that what you are taught in your church? God forbid! Your church is anti-Biblical.
It is never a burden to pray. Our Christian life must ever be rooted and nourished in prayer. In Luke 18:1, the Lord Himself tells us, “to pray always without becoming weary.” Why do you then consider prayer as burdensome? If it praying does not and should not weary us Christians here on earth, all the more that Christians in heaven, like Mary, will never be weary of it. There is just no justification, Biblical or otherwise, to your anti-Christian belief that prayer is a burden.
Catholics don’t burden Mary by asking her to pray for us now and at the hour of our death. It is by the Lord’s explicit command that prayer should not weary anybody. And it is also the Bible’s categorical teaching to “pray without ceasing” (1 Thes. 5:17). Here, your objection falters on two Biblical grounds:
(1) no one should ever weary in prayer, and
(2) to pray without ceasing.
I am also aghast by your lack of any idea of what heaven is like. Your eschatological milieu is totally bankrupt. Pray, tell, how can those in heaven be ever burdened and tired as you claimed that we give Mary the burden to pray for us? Can those in heaven still experience exhaustion, weariness or burden? If you say yes, you don’t know heaven at all where “there is no hunger or thirst” (Rev. 7:16) or any other limitations and privations that we do suffer and experience here on earh. “"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” (1 Cor. 2:9)]
Anonymous said…
Referring to Biblical meaning of prayer, Psalm 136 and Revelation 4:8 are not prayers but PRAISES to GOD! David acknowledges the power of God and praises Him. Same thing did by the four beast, they give glory, praises and thanksgiving to God day and night.
[Again, your view of prayer is severely limited. There is such a thing as prayer of praise and the examples in Psalm 136 and Revelation 4:8 are just examples. You have to heal your understanding of prayer and broaden your Biblical worldview of prayer. You are missing a lot of things. I wish we can share with you the great treasury of prayers of the Church, which are all taught in God’s Word. There are just so many kinds of prayer taught in the Bible– and you have absolutely no idea what these are.]
Anonymous said…
Let us always remember this passage:
(Pro 15:8) The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
[I say Amen to that! The various forms of prayer offer by Catholics who are upright are delightful to God. These include adoration and praise, thanksgiving and supplication, intercession and so much more. Yours is merely one of supplication, a very narrow and transactional view of prayer with the purpose of getting something from God. Know this: even publicans, Pharisees, and evil men pray to God to Him for something. And it seems to me you are in good company.]
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![ST. JEROME EMILIANI [1486-1537]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6dKQTchkJaA/R0lo013dyBI/AAAAAAAAB_4/XzUAPDESwwQ/s1600/St.+Jerome+in+prayer,+small_1.jpg)
as always, wonderful reasoning by bro. mars...
ReplyDeleteThank you my dearest brother in the Lord, beloved brother Gregor Alfonsin for your comment. As you may note, much of the attacks against our holy Catholic Faith is borne out by bias and prejudice. If we explain our side thoroughly and well, chances are, the opposition will be mitigated if not totally annihilated. The one who criticized us for praying the Hail Mary is a certain JC, a member of Soriano's church. He/she has since stopped posting his/her comments here. I am glad that he/she got the answers straight from orthodox Catholic sources. I am happy to note that JC is open-minded and was just concerened with knowing the truth. Now that he got it, I pray that the Holy Spirit will lead him/her to the fulness of the Truth that only in the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church can be found.
ReplyDeleteMagandang Araw po Padre. Yaon pong batikos nila hinggil sa paguulit ng panalangin ay bunga ng kanilang kawalang unawa sa salitang ginagamit sa Bagong Tipan. Hindi po ba ang salitang ginamit sa Bagong Tipan ay Griyego? Kaya sa tingin ko po ay dapat munang suriin ang orihinal na tekstong Griyego:
ReplyDeleteMat.6:7
proseucomenoi de mh BATTALOGHSHTE wsper oi eqnikoi dokousin gar oti en th polulogia autwn eisakousqhsontai
Ang nakalagay po sa texto ay "BATTALOGHSHTE" na ang ibig sabihin ay "babbling". Kung talagang "vain repetition" ang gustong sabihin sa orihinal na texto, dapat po sana ay "Ī¼Ī¬ĻĪ±Ī¹Ī± ĪµĻĪ±Ī½Ī¬Ī»Ī·ĻĪ·" ang nakalagay. Patunay lamang po na ang mga heretiko ay mangmang sa orihinal na wika ng Biblia.
Thank you, dear brother Anonymous. I also made the same point in my refutation of Dr. Anthony Pezzotta, apostate priest-turned-Baptist pastor.
ReplyDeletePlease see: http://bromarwilnllasos.blogspot.com/search/label/Rosary
Here are some excerpts:
ReplyDeleteFinally, Pezzotta attacks the Rosary and calls it “unacceptable” supposedly because of the “repetition of words.” The Baptist pastor claims that Jesus is against “repetitive prayers.” He quotes Matthew 6:7 of Today’s English Version –
When you pray, do not use a lot of meaningless words, as the pagans do, who think that their gods will hear them because their prayers are long.
Notice that there is nothing in the passage from TEV quoted by Pezzotta that condemns “repetitive prayers.” The verse says that when we pray, we should not use “a lot of meaningless words as the pagans do.” Catholics don’t use meaningless words in praying like the pagans. The words in the Rosary are certainly not meaningless. Pezzotta himself concedes that there are “positive things” in the Rosary like the “very good aspect” of meditating on the important events in the life of Christ. So, how can the prayerful meditation of the Christ-event be meaningless?
Our Lord also condemns the lengthy prayers of the Pharisees in Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47: “They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.” Here, Our Lord condemns making lengthy prayers “for a show.” This condemnation, in fact, seems to apply more to Protestant worship or Evangelical fellowship. Pastors and ministers like Rev. Anthony Pezzotta pray lengthily, oftentimes using grandiloquent words for effective histrionic effect. It is noticeable that in almost every service, they repeat their rather bombastic and intensely emotional prayers. The pastors’ and ministers’ flair for theatrics in praying is truly remarkable. They always seem to be haranguing God and their congregation.
In attacking the Rosary as “repetitive prayer” Pezzotta should have used the King James Version instead. For praying the Rosary, Catholics are often accused of “vain repetition” by Protestants pointing to Matthew 6:7 of their King James Version of the Bible:
ReplyDelete"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
The Protestant attack on the Rosary as “vain repetition” is based on an erroneous translation of the Bible. The original Greek text of Matthew 6:7 (which Pezzotta never mentions) states:
"Proseuchomenoi de mE battalogEsEte hOsper hoi ethnikoi dokousin gar hoti en tE polulogia autOn eisakousthEsontai."
The root word of “battalogEsEte” is “battalogeo” which is better translated as “babbling.” Protestant scholars already realized their mistake. They corrected the error and rendered Matthew 6:7 in the New International Version as:
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
Thus, for deliberately changing the Word of God, Protestant (mis)translators “have perverted the words of the living God” (Jer. 23:36).
We see an example of vain repetition by pagans In 1 Kings 18:25-29. The prayer of the prophets of Baal is obviously “vain repetition.” In the first place, they are addressed to a false god who cannot hear them. One definitely does not need to leap around, cut oneself and cry out loud from morning until afternoon in praying to a non-existent being.
ReplyDeleteIn Chapter 19 of the Acts of the Apostles, we find the Ephesians repeatedly heaping praises on their goddess Diana: “Great is Diana of the Ephesians!” (Acts 19:28; 34). Certainly, that is empty repetition because they are praising a non-existent being. In fact, Paul was persuading the Ephesians to abandon their idol worship (Acts 19:26). Paul’s preaching angered the populace because it threatened their trade of making silver temples and idols. If Paul would be successful, they would have to close shop.
Actually, Matthew 6:7 condemns the “babbling” of pagans. What does “babbling” mean? In Today’s English Version which Pezzotta quotes, Matthew 6:7 is rendered:
When you pray, do not use a lot of meaningless words, as the pagans do, who think that their gods will hear them because their prayers are long.
The Amplified Bible renders the same verse as:
"And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking."
We should always remember that what counts most in our prayer life is our sincerity. We have to mean what we say. Our Lord insists on this when He said: “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me” (Mt. 15:8, NIV). What we say should come from our heart because “the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart” (Mt. 15:18, NIV).
ReplyDeleteThe Bible does not condemn repetitious prayer per se. In fact, Our Lord Himself engaged in repetitious prayer during His agony in the garden. In Matthew 26:44, we are told: So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.”
If Pezzotta is correct in saying that Jesus is against “repetitive prayers” then the Lord Himself ate His own words and contradicted His own teaching.
As Catholics, we take Jesus as our Model in our prayer life: “Lord, teach us to pray” (Lk. 11:1). Jesus is our example in everything we say or do, as He Himself told us: “I have given you an example, that as I have done to you, so you do also” (Jn. 13:15, DRV). We Catholics follow His example because He said: “Learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart” (Mt. 11:29).
In Luke 18:9-14, we read about the prayer of the tax collector. In that passage, the original Greek text uses the imperfect tense meaning that the tax collector "kept beating his breast and saying, “Have mercy on me O Lord, a sinner.”
ReplyDeleteThe angels in heaven also engage in a repetitious prayer of adoration before the thrice-holy God as indicated in Revelations 4:8:
"And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."
The Book of Psalms occupies a place of honor in Jewish Liturgy (and in Christian Liturgy as well). It is a treasury of prayers for almost any thing. The Book of Psalms is repetitiously used in the Liturgy of the People of God in which Our Lord Himself participated. Psalm 136 is an antiphonal Psalm with the refrain “for His mercy endures forever.” This same refrain is mentioned in Psalm 106:1, 107:1, 118: 1-4, 29 which parallels 2 Chronicles 5:13, 7:3,6.
An ejaculatory prayer, “Praise the Lord!” is mentioned countless times in the Bible (See: Ps. 116:17, 111:1, 112:1, 135:1, 146:1, 147:1). So-called “Born Again Christians” like Dr. Pezzotta are fond of shouting “Praise the Lord!” whenever they can without realizing that they are actually engaging in repetitious prayer.
The Jews also pray “Our help is in the name of the Lord” repetitiously (Ps. 121:2, 124:8). Jews also repeat a number of times the interjection “Amen” (Ps. 89:52) like we Christians do. Finally, Psalm 120:164 tells us: “Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.”
ReplyDeleteJesus gave us two parables to illustrate that persistence and repetitious prayer can be just the right approach (Lk. 11:5-13, Luke 18:2-5). Our Lord taught us to “pray always” (Lk. 21:36). Jesus told His Apostles that “they should always pray and not give up” (Lk. 18:1). St. Paul the Apostle exhorts us to “pray without ceasing” (1 Thess. 5:17). He engaged in repetitious prayer himself: “For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me” (2 Cor. 12:8). Clearly, St. Paul practiced what he preached.
Formulary prayers are not the only prayers Catholics pray. The Catholic Church has a beautiful theology of prayer that Pezzotta should have known as a Catholic priest. The Church encourages her children to engage in spontaneous prayer, vocal prayer, mental prayer, contemplative or meditative prayer, liturgical prayer, as well as a host of other forms of prayer constituting her inexhaustible treasury of prayers that ascend like fragrant incense to the throne of the Almighty.
In praying, Catholics are not bound by the language of exact science or precise theology. We speak the language of love. By using the language of love, we are bound to repeat ourselves to impress to our beloved our beautiful message of love. Our loved ones do not get tired of hearing the same words from us, especially if they come from the innermost recesses of our heart. We can never say “I love you” enough. We believe that God appreciates our language of love because “God is love” (1 Jn. 4:16).