Pope Benedict XVI during the Consecration with other priests during mass in Manger Square in the West Bank town of Bethlehem.
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The post is very troublesome in its denigration of Latin Masses pre-V2, even by defenders of Latin. That people fall short of doing something well is not an excuse for abandoning it. If that is the standard, then it should be applied equally to the Novus Ordo. Look at the abuses infractions in the Novus Ordo now.
There are pros and cons to both Latin and vernacular. Of course, Latin has not been the common language for centuries but is retained precisely because it is not subject to the whims of fads. The Church has been ruptured before due to a single mistranslation or misunderstanding in its definitions. Look at the case of the English translations of ICEL.
People should be adults and if they cannot understand something, they should seek knowledge instead of lambasting their ignorance. It is sad to hear somebody say they do not understand the kyrie.
The dismal ignorance and the support for RH Bill in a catholic majority country is proof that vernacular is not the panacea extolled. If things are so great in vernacular world of worship, why the widespread ignorance?
Litury is confused with catechesis.Understanding is done by catechesis. In many parishes and dioceses, there is a collapse of catechesis after the change to vernacular in the liturgy. Maybe the idea is that understanding the liturgy makes the faith self-evident.
The irony is that the draconian imposition of Novus Ordo is the last gasp for the Tridentine style of ruling the church. A way that is much maligned by liberals. Never again will the entire church just accept the whims of a Bugnini. SP did not at all impose removing N.O., why make wild conjectures of mass rebellion. Prepare for the new English translation and the hysteria of liberals.
- Fr. Abe, CRS said...
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[The post is very troublesome in its denigration of Latin Masses pre-V2,]
EXCUSE ME. IT IS NOT THE LATIN MASSES THAT IS DEGRADED HERE BUT THE ILLICIT SSPX REBELS. DON'T EQUATE THAT GROUP WITH THE LATIN MASS. THEY DO NOT OWN THE LATIN MASS. THEY ARE ONLY USING IT FOR THEIR REBELLION AGAINST THE CHURCH.
[ even by defenders of Latin.]
THE SSPX DOES NOT DEFEND LATIN. IT ONLY USES IT TO FEED ITS REBELLION.
[ That people fall short of doing something well is not an excuse for abandoning it.]
IT IS NOT JUST THE PEOPLE THAT FALL SHORT. THE LATIN LANGUAGE ALREADY FELL SHORT FOR THE LIFE OF THE PEOPLE. IT IS NO LONGER USE IN ACADEME, IN LITERATURE AND IN SCIENCES EXCEPT AMONG THOSE SPECIALIZING IN THAT PARTICULAR LANGUAGE. THUS, IT IS NO LONGER THE LIVING LANGUAGE THAT THE CHURCH HAD CHOSEN IN FAVOR OF GREEK IN THE 4TH CENTURY. AS IT WAS CHOSEN IN FAVOR OF GREEK, IT CAN ALSO BE REPLACED BY ANOTHER ONCE THE LANGUAGE IS NO LONGER UNDERSTANDABLE TO THE PEOPLE.
[ If that is the standard, then it should be applied equally to the Novus Ordo.]
THAT IS AN STANDARD BUT NOT THE ONLY STANDARD. IN LATIN IT IS THE LANGUAGE ITSELF THAT DIED DOWN. IT'S NOT THE FAULT OF THE PEOPLE. IT IS THE NATURAL WEAKNESS OF THE LANGUAGE THAT OUTLIVED ITS USEFULNESS.
THE VERNACULAR IS THE NEW 'VULGATE' OF THE PEOPLE THEN IT MUST BE USED IN THE LITURGY. THERE IS NO DOGMA IN THE CHURCH THAT SAYS THE HOLY MASS MUST BE CELEBRATED IN ONE LANGUAGE ALONE PERPETUALLY. THE USE OF LATIN IS NOT A DOGMA, BUT A PASTORAL NECESSITY... NOW, THAT NECESSITY IS GOD. THE NECESSITY CHANGED IN FAVOR OF THE VERNACULAR.
THE SSPX KEEPS ON SAYING THAT VATICAN II IS PASTORAL. WELL, THE USE OF LATIN IS ALSO PASTORAL.
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[Look at the abuses infractions in the Novus Ordo now.]
EXCUSE ME. YOU ARE USING THAT SO CALLED ABUSES IN NOVUS ORDO AS IF THE ABUSES ARE NOT PRESENT IN THE PAST.
THE LITURGICAL ABUSES NOW IS NO MORE THAN THE LITURGICAL ABUSES DURING THE TIME OF THE APOSTLES WHEN PEOPLE WERE DYING DUE TO THEIR SINS AGAINST THE HOLY EUCHARIST AS REPORTED BY ST. PAUL IN 1 CORINTHIANS 11. BEFORE AND AFTER THE COUNCIL OF TRENT THE CHURCH WAS ALSO BESIEGED BY CANONICAL AND LITURGICAL ABUSES. THE ABUSES CONFRONTED BY TRENT IS MUCH TERRIBLE IN DEGREE THAN THOSE WE ARE CONFRONTING TODAY.
DURING THE PRE-VATICAN II THERE WERE ABUSES ALSO. WHAT IS LACKING IS THE TECHNOLOGY THAT RECORDS AND SENDS THESE ABUSES IN THE INTERNET OR TELEVISION FOR THE WHOLE WORLD TO SEE.
[There are pros and cons to both Latin and vernacular.]
OBVIOUSLY, AS THE DEBATES DURING THE VATICAN II SHOWED THE PROS IN FAVOR OF VERNACULAR IS MORE THAN THE CONS AND THE CONS IN USING THE LATIN ALONE IS GREATER THAN THE PROS.
[Of course, Latin has not been the common language for centuries but is retained precisely because it is not subject to the whims of fads.]
LANGUAGE IS NOT THE WHIMS OF FADS. IT IS A PRODUCT OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF CULTURE. THE CHURCH USUS THE LANGUAGE UNDERSTANDABLE TO PEOPLE NOT THE ONE THAT IS ONLY THE LEARNED AND THE HOLY SPIRIT COULD UNDERSTAND.
DURING THE PENTECOST THE SPIRIT OF GOD RESPECTED THE LANGUAGE OF PEOPLE FROM VARIOUS PLACES BY MAKING EACH ONE OF THEM UNDERSTAND THE PREACHING OF THE APOSTLES IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE. AND THE SAME SPIRIT DIDN'T DECREE THAT LATIN WILL BE THE ONLY LANGUAGE TO BE USED FOR THE DIVINE LITURGY. O NO, NO, NO...
LATIN WAS USED BY THE CHURCH WHEN IT WAS THE 'VULGATE'... THE 'VULGAR' OR COMMON LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE. WHEN IT WAS NO LONGER COMMON THE CHURCH WISELY REPLACED IT.
TO CONTINUOUSLY USE LATIN IS TO FALLOW THE WHIMS AND CAPRICES OF THE FEW ROMANTICS WHO ARE DREAMERS OF THE PAST AND NOT VISIONARY FOR THE FUTURE. PEOPLE WITH STAGNANT MIND AND COLD HEART FOR THE WARM REALITY THAT LATIN IS DEAD.
[The Church has been ruptured before due to a single mistranslation or misunderstanding in its definitions.]
THE CHURCH IS NEVER BEEN RUPTURED. THE CHURCH IS THE CHURCH, ALWAYS AND EVERY WHERE. PROBLEM WITH TRANSLATION FROM TIME TO TIME DOES NOT IN ANY WAY DIMINISH THE CHURCH AND DEFINITELY THERE WAS NO RUPTURE.
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[Look at the case of the English translations of ICEL.]
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE TRANSLATIONS OF ICEL? IS THERE ANY HERESY WITH IT? AND MUCH MORE, IT MAY NOT BE A PERFECT TRANSLATION BUT IT IS A VERY BEAUTIFUL AND ENRICHING TRANSLATION.
[People should be adults and if they cannot understand something, they should seek knowledge instead of lambasting their ignorance.]
IT SOUNDS BEAUTIFUL BUT BASICALLY DEFECTIVE.
IF THE LORD JESUS DIDN'T IMPOSE ARAMAIC OR HEBREW ON THE APOSTLES WHY DO YOU IMPOSE LATIN ON US? THE APOSTLES CELEBRATED THE MASS AND WROTE AND PREACHED IN GREEK. THE LATER ON POPE ST. DAMASUS CHANGED IT TO LATIN WITHOUT DETRIMENT TO GREEK RITE AND OTHER ORIENTAL RITES. HOW COME THE USE OF VERNACULAR IS SUDDENLY BECOMING EVIL TODAY?
THE ROOTS OF EVIL TODAY IS NOT THE NOVUS ORDO AND THE VERNACULAR BUT SIN. AND THE ROOT OF HOLINESS IN PRE-VATICAN II LITURGY IS NOT LATIN BUT THE GRACE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WHICH IS PRESENT STILL TODAY. THE GRACE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT EXCLUSIVE IN THE LATIN LANGUAGE. TO CLAIM OTHERWISE IS A MANIFESTATION OF SUBLIME LIES AND STUPIDITY.
[It is sad to hear somebody say they do not understand the kyrie.]
OF COURSE, THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE KYRIE. EVEN IF THEY KNOW ITS TRANSLATION IT IS ONLY KNOWING THE TRANSLATION BUT NOT KNOWING IT INSTINCTIVELY. FOR AN AMERICAN TO SING 'LORD, HAVE MERCY' OR FOR A FILIPINO TO SING 'PANGINOON, MAAWA KA' IS NOT JUST PRAYING THROUGH TRANSLATIONS BUT DIRECT EXPRESSION OF WHAT IS IN YOUR HEART AND MIND AND VERY BEING. THAT IS WHY THE HOLY SPIRIT COMMUNICATES DIRECTLY THROUGH THE NATIVE LANGUAGE OF THE AUDIENCE IN PENTECOST. AS WE ALL KNOW, THE PENTECOST IS THE CHURCH IN ITS SEMINAL FORM OR RATHER THE CHURCH IN HER INFANCY.
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[The dismal ignorance and the support for RH Bill in a catholic majority country is proof that vernacular is not the panacea extolled.]
NOT SO. THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE DEFENDING THE CHURCH AGAINST THE RH BILL. THE CATHOLIC APOLOGISTS INCLUDING MY PERSON AND THIS BLOG AND THE MEMBERS OF DEFENSORES FIDEI AND CATHOLIC FAITH DEFENDERS WHO ARE 99% LAY ARE DEFENDING THE CHURCH. WE NEVER HEARD ANY OF THE SSPX PRIESTS OR SUPPORTERS DEFENDING THE CHURCH IN PUBLIC FORUM. THEY SIMPLY JOIN THE ENEMIES. THE HOMOSEXUALS AND FEMINISTS ATTACK THE CHURCH AND THE POPE ON RH BILL, WHILE THE SSPX SUPPORTERS ATTACK THE CHURCH AND THE POPE ON MATTERS OF LITURGY. SEE, YOU ARE NOT WITH THE CHURCH AND THE POPE. YOU BELONG TO THE OTHER SIDE. YOU ARE ONE WITH OUR ENEMIES.
I STILL HAVE TO SEE AN SSPX LAY PERSON TO GO TO THE MEDIA EXPLAINING THE MEANING OF FREEDOM AND CONSCIENCE IN LATIN IN ORDER TO DEBUNK THE RH BILL. SHOW ME ANY VIDEO. ON MY PART, I'VE BEEN ON SEVERAL SEMINARS, RADIO SHOWS ALREADY TOGETHER WITH LAY CATHOLICS DEFENDING THE CHURCH AGAINST THE RH BILL.
DO NOT PROJECT UNTO US YOUR OWN USELESSNESS AND INABILITY. IF YOU CANNOT TRUST THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH ON LITURGY THEN YOU CANNOT TRUST HER ON MORAL ISSUES. TO BE TRAITOR IN LITURGY IS TO BE TRAITOR ON MORALS AND ON DOGMA AND ON ALL ASPECTS OF CHURCH LIFE INCLUDING THE CANON LAW.
[If things are so great in vernacular world of worship, why the widespread ignorance?]
THE CATHOLICS DURING THE PRE-VATICAN II ARE MORE IGNORANT. GATHER TOGETHER THE NUMBER OF BOOKS WRITTEN BY LAY DURING THE PRE-VATICAN II? GET THE NAMES OF LAY PREACHERS AND TEACHER OF FAITH BEFORE? ALMOST NONE. NOW, THE CATHOLIC RADIOS, TV's, NEWSPAPERS ARE MOSTLY RUN, ADMINISTERED AND MANNED BY LAY PEOPLE. AFTER VATICAN II LAY CATHOLIC APOLOGISTS ROSE IN PROMINENCE AND THEY WERE ABLE TO CONVERT THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF CONVERTS YEAR AFTER YEAR IN U.S. ALONE. TO THE POINT THAT EVERY YEAR MORE THAN 350,000 ADULT CONVERSIONS ARE HAPPENING IN THE U.S.
GO TO FACEBOOK, GO TO RELIGIOUS BLOGS. THE APOLOGISTS AND CATHOLIC BLOGGERS ARE LAY PEOPLE. THEY ARE DEFENDING THE CHURCH ON RH BILL AND ON DOGMATIC MATTERS. ONE OF THEIR ENEMIES ARE THE SSPX DIE-HARDS WHO KNOW NOTHING EXCEPT ATTACKING THE POPE, THE NOVUS ORDO AND VATICAN II. THEY ARE BUNCH OF USELESS AND TREACHEROUS PEOPLE.
[Litury is confused with catechesis.]
THERE IS NO CONFUSION. THERE IS ONLY ESSENTIAL UNITY AND HARMONY BETWEEN THE TWO. IN THE LATIN MASS, SO MUCH SILENCE DILUTES THE KERYGMATIC NATURE OF THE LITURGY.
[Understanding is done by catechesis.]
SO, YOU ARE ADMITTING NOW THAT IT IS OK TO BE IGNORANT DURING THE MASS AS LONG AS THE EXPLANATION WILL BE GIVEN THROUGH CATECHESIS. HOW DO YOU GIVE THEM CATECHESIS? SHALL YOU CALL THE SAME NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ATTENDED YOUR SUNDAY MASS THE FOLLOWING DAY TO HEAR CATECHESIS?
WHEN JESUS CELEBRATED THE LAST SUPPER, IT WAS LITURGICAL AND AT THE SAME TIME CATECHETICAL. IT WAS SPIRITUAL AND KERYGMATIC AT THE SAME TIME. YOU ARE CREATING A BIFURCATION ON SOMETHING THAT IS ESSENTIALLY UNITED.
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[In many parishes and dioceses, there is a collapse of catechesis after the change to vernacular in the liturgy.]
O NO, NO, NO... ACTUALLY THERE IS A MORE ACTIVE CATECHESIS NOW THAN BEFORE. BECAUSE THE SIMPLE PEOPLE ARE SINGING CATHOLIC SONGS USED IN THE MASS EVEN AT HOME AND THEY SERVE AS CATECHESIS. THUS, THE POPULARITY OF 'ANG PANGINOON ANG AKING PASTOL' 'HINDI KITA MALILIMUTAN' 'PURIHIN ANG PANGINOON' WHICH PEOPLE SING FROM THE HEART.
[Maybe the idea is that understanding the liturgy makes the faith self-evident.]
THE IDEA IS THAT UNDERSTANDING THE LITURGY MAKES THE FAITH BETTER UNDERSTOOD BY THE PEOPLE. WHETHER THE MASS IS IN LATIN OR VERNACULAR THERE WILL BE HYPCRISY AMONG THE FAITHFUL. THERE ARE IDIOTS AMONG TLM FOLLOWERS AND ALSO IN NOVUS ORDO. BUT IN NOVUS ORDO IT IS UNDERSTOOD WHILE IN TLM IT IS NOT.
[The irony is that the draconian imposition of Novus Ordo is the last gasp for the Tridentine style of ruling the church.]
THERE IS NO DRACONIAN IMPOSITION OF NOVUS ORDO. THERE IS ONLY THE PONTIFICAL COMMAND FOR ITS UNIVERSAL USE. YOUR LANGUAGE IS MORE PROPER FOR 'DRAGONS' NOT FOR CATHOLICS.
WELL, THE LAST GASP FOR THE TRIDENTINE STYLE OF RULING THE CHURCH IS BROUGHT ABOUT BY THE VATICAN STYLE OF RULING THE CHURCH. THE TRIDENTINE SYTLE BROUGHT AN END TO THE LATERAN STYLE AND THE LATERAN SYTLE BROUGHT AN END TO THE CONSTANTINOPOLITAN STYLE. AND THE CONSTANTINOPOLITAN STYLE BROUGHT AN END TO THE CHALCEDONIAN STYLE.
THESE STYLES ARE NOT DOGMAS. THEY ARE PASTORAL. THEY ARE BOUND TO CHANGE. IF YOU WANT TO REMAIN IN THE TRIDENTINE STYLE THEN JOIN THE 'OLD CATHOLICS'. THE PROCESS OF CHANGE FROM TRIDENTINE TO VATICAN STYLE CAME WITH THE FIRST VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL.
[ A way that is much maligned by liberals.]
THE LIBERALS MALIGNED THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH AND OF THE POPE. EXACTLY THE MANNER OF LEFEBVRE AND HIS COHORTS. THAT IS WHY YOU ARE MORE IN COMMON WITH THEM. THE CHURCH AND THE POPE IS OPPOSED BY THE PRO-RH BILL AND YOU ARE DOING THE SAME ON THE LITURGICAL LEVEL. THE SAME DEMON THAT POSSESSED THESE LIBERALS IS THE SAME DEMON THAT IS POSSESSING YOUR MIND.
- THE ULTRA TRADITIONALS AT SO AT PAINED THAT THE LIBERALS MALIGNED THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH YET THEY ARE DOING THE SAME.
[ Never again will the entire church just accept the whims of a Bugnini.]
BUGNINI SIMPLY FOLLOWS THE DIRECTIVE OF POPE PAUL VI.
99.99% OF THE CHURCH RESPECTED THE DECISION OF THE POPE THROUGH BUGNINI ONLY VERY FEW FOLLOWED THE REBELLION OF THAT WACKY OLD FOOL NAMED LEFEBVRE IN DISOBEYING THE POPE. CARDINALS OTTAVIANI, SIRI AND OTHERS REFUSED TO JOIN THE REBELLION OF LEFEBVRE.
YOU CANNOT SPEAK FOR THE ENTIRE CHURCH BECAUSE THE ENTIRE CHURCH HAS ALREADY ACCEPTED THE USE OF THE NOVUS ORDO. FROM TIME TO TIME THERE WILL BE FEW THOUSANDS WHO PREFER LATIN OVER VERNACULAR. BUT MILLIONS AND MILLIONS LOVE THE USE OF THE VERNACULAR.
[SP did not at all impose removing N.O., why make wild conjectures of mass rebellion.]
I DO NOT MAKE WILD CONJECTURES OF MASS REBELLION. BECAUSE THE FOLLOWERS OF SSPX ARE SURELY NOT ON THE LEVEL OF A 'MASS' OR A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE. THEY ARE SO FEW. YET SO NOISY. AND INDEED THEY ARE IN REBELLION. NOT MASS REBELLION BUT SIMPLY REBELLION. LITURGICAL REBELLION.
[Prepare for the new English translation and the hysteria of liberals.]
THE LIBERALS CAN CRY THEIR HEARTS OUT TILL THEY BLEED TO DEATH BUT THE NEW TRANSLATIONS SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.
ON THE PART OF THE SSPX, THE VERNACULAR SHALL BE IN USE WHETHER THEY LIKE IT OR NOT.
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![ST. JEROME EMILIANI [1486-1537]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6dKQTchkJaA/R0lo013dyBI/AAAAAAAAB_4/XzUAPDESwwQ/s1600/St.+Jerome+in+prayer,+small_1.jpg)
Christ offered the first Eucharistic Sacrifice in a language which could be understood by all who heard him, namely, Aramaic. … Never could the idea have come to them [the Apostles] that in a Christian gathering the celebrant should read the texts of Holy Scripture, sing psalms, preach or break bread, and at the same time use a language different from that of the community gathered there … because this language [Latin] was spoken by the faithful of that time, Greek was abandoned in favor of Latin. … Why, then, should the Roman Church cease to apply the same principle today?
ReplyDeleteMaximos IV Sayegh, Patriarch of the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, Speech at the Second Vatican Council
YES. THAT IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. PATRIARCH MAXIMOS IV SAYEGH WAS ONE OF THE GREAT SPEAKERS OR DEBATERS DURING THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL. CARDINAL OTTAVIANI FAILED TO REFUTE THE ARGUMENTS PRESENTED BY PATRIARCH MAXIMOS DURING THEIR EXCHANGE. THEY WERE BOTH VERY OLD. THE PATRIARCH WAS OVER 80 DURING THE COUNCIL BUT HIS MIND AND HIS ELOQUENCE WAS PAR EXCELLENCE.
ReplyDeleteTHE ULTRA TRADS USES THE ARGUMENT THAT VATICAN II IS ONLY A PASTORAL COUNCIL. WELL, THE USE OF LATIN IS ALSO A PASTORAL DECISION. IT IS NOT DOGMATIC. NO LANGUAGE IS CHOSEN BY THE CHURCH AS A DOGMA OF FAITH. THAT IS AN INSULT TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.
*Vatican II being "pastoral":
ReplyDelete●"In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided any extraordinary statement of dogmas that would be endowed with the note of infallibility, but it still provided its teaching with the authority of the supreme ordinary Magisterium. This ordinary Magisterium, which is so obviously official, has to be accepted with docility, and sincerity by all the faithful, in accordance with the mind of the Council on the nature and aims of the individual documents."
~Pope Paul VI, General Audience of 12 January 1966.
●"Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent" which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it."
~Catechism of the Catholic Church, #892
Father,Why Don't You Visit WDTPRS.com to see what does the prayers of the Mass Really Say from Latin to English(First the ICEL Translations,and then
ReplyDeleteFather Z's Translations witch are faithful to the Original Latin)
READ THE ORIGINAL HEBREW AND GREEK BIBLE AND YOU WILL SEE THAT EVEN THE GREAT AND LOVED LATINA VULGATA OF ST. JEROME WAS NOT 'PERFECT' TRANSLATION OF THE ORIGINALS. IN FACT, IT WAS REVISED SEVERAL TIMES LATER.
ReplyDeleteNO TRANSLATIONS ARE PERFECT. THEY ALL HAVE LIMITATIONS.
THE CATHOLICS OF THE TIME OF ST. JEROME DIDN'T MAKE UNREASONABLE CRIES BECAUSE OF HIS FAILURE TO EXPRESS THE FULL INTENT OF THE ORIGINAL TEXTS. THEY ACCEPTED IT WITH WHOLE HEART BECAUSE THE POPE APPROVED IT. WHEN THE PROPER AUTHORITIES OF THE CHURCH APPROVED THE TRANSLATIONS THEN I DO NOT CREATE ISSUES OUT OF IT. I USE THE APPROVED TEXTS PERFECT OR IMPERFECT THOUGH THEY ARE.
SOMETIMES THE CRITICS ARE MORE CRITICAL NOT ONLY THAN THE AUTHORITIES OF THE CHURCH BUT MORE THAN THE HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF. THANK GOD THEY ARE NOT THE POPE, THEY ARE MERE CRYING BABIES.
I Did not Say They are Perfect(The Translations at WDTPRS.com),but they are theologically richer than the ICEL Translations!
ReplyDeleteAll translations are imperfect unless the Holy Spirit inspired the person who did the translation.
ReplyDeleteWe agree that Fr. Z is a learned and erudite cleric. Most probably he is holier or a better scholar than the panel of experts in ICEL. Unfortunately Fr. Z is not the one officially authorized to do the translation. Then, the least that we can do is to present to the proper authority the translation of Fr. Z. if you prefer that opus more than that of ICEL. However, let us not downgrade the translation of ICEL because it is also a good translation.
Personally speaking I love and appreciate the translation of ICEL. I find their Psalms easier to sing than the poetry of Douay-Rheims or New American Bible or Jerusalem Bible.
But if we intentionally criticize the ICEL translation then we will see what we want to see. We will find negative things on something that is good. We will continuously state: "This word is better translated with this" or "That phrase is not properly expressed" etc.
WE ARE LIKE CHILDREN WHO ARE UNHAPPY WITH WHAT OUR PARENTS HAVE OFFERED ON THE TABLE BECAUSE IT IS FISH NOT MEAT. Let us appreciate what our Mother Church has been offering to us as food rather than what we want according to our whims and desires. WE MUST NOT BE LIKE THE ISRAELITES WHO FIND FAULT EVEN ON EVERY MINUTEST DETAILS AGAINST MOSES AND AARON.
Have you read Father Z's Blog?
ReplyDeleteDO I HAVE TO? HAVE YOU TOLD FR. Z TO READ MY BLOG? ARE WE COMPELLED BY FAITH OR MORALS, BY CONSCIENCE OR DEMAND OF JUSTICE TO READ EACH OTHER'S BLOG?
ReplyDeleteI ADMIRE AND RESPECT FR. Z AND FROM TIME TO TIME I VISIT HIS BLOG. I AGREE WITH MOST OF HIS POSITION. ACTUALLY, I AGREE THAT OUR PRESENT TRANSLATIONS ARE IN NEED OF IMPROVEMENT OR EDITION. I AM NOT SAYING THAT HE IS DOING THIS BUT I DISAGREE WITH PEOPLE WHO PUT MALICE INTO THE OFFICIAL TRANSLATIONS OF THE LITURGICAL TEXTS OF THE CHURCH. WE CAN CRITICIZE WITHOUT PUTTING MALICE.
I AM NOT PASSING JUDGMENT ON FR. Z. I AM ANSWERING ON QUESTIONS THAT ARE BEING THROWN HERE. AND I DON'T NEED FR. Z TO DO THAT.
St Jerome was inspired by the Holy Spirit to translate the Sacred Scripture into Latin, thus St Jerome's translation is spotless. Free from error.
ReplyDeleteREALLY? WHY WAS IT EDITED AND REVISED?
ReplyDeleteWas Saint Jerome teaching faith and morals? was he the pope to be gifted with infallibility? Translating books are not part of infallible gift of the holy Spirit.
ReplyDeleteThat's What I was Trying to Say Father! Thanks for Your Insights!!!
ReplyDeleteOetmnes cum Petro ad Jesum per Mariam!(All with Peter to Jesus through Mary!)
WELCOME BROTHER.
ReplyDeleteHello Fr.Abe,
ReplyDeleteI could not tolerate your harsh comments against the Society of Saint Pius X. You are being unfair.How could a priest uttered such kind of harsh and unfounded statements?
You wrote and I quote, "THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE DEFENDING THE CHURCH AGAINST THE RH BILL. THE CATHOLIC APOLOGISTS INCLUDING MY PERSON AND THIS BLOG AND THE MEMBERS OF DEFENSORES FIDEI AND CATHOLIC FAITH DEFENDERS WHO ARE 99% LAY ARE DEFENDING THE CHURCH. WE NEVER HEARD ANY OF THE SSPX PRIESTS OR SUPPORTERS DEFENDING THE CHURCH IN PUBLIC FORUM. THEY SIMPLY JOIN THE ENEMIES."
For your information, Our Lady of Victories Church in Quezon City under the SSPX is very much active in opposing the Reproductive Health Bill. How?
Last Sunday, through the effort of Rev. Fr. Onoda, we invited Dra.Ligaya Acosta, the Executive Director of Pro-Life International for Asia and Oceania. Dra.Ligaya Acosta gave a conference after our 9:00 AM Sung Mass. She even praised the Latin Mass and the SSPX for their efforts.
Also present during the conference was Atty.Jo Imbong, the executive secretary of the Legal office of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines and consultant to the CBCP Episcopal Commission on Family and Life.
See that? Your accusations were baseless.
And to give you more,through the efforts of Rev.Fr.Ghela, SSPX, we also had the privileged to interview Former Manila Mayor Lito Atienza. He gave his support for our Prayer Crusade against the Reproductive Health Bill.
Here's the link of the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Or8PUTh54&feature=email
We are also inviting you to attend our Eucharistic Adoration. Instead of spreading false accusations against the SSPX, why not join us in prayers?
Father, hope you will watch your words and statements first. As priest, you are expected to behave in a holy way even to your so called enemies.
Thank you very much.
Yours in Jesus, Mary and Joseph,
Renel
P.S: I don't know if you can still remember me,I joined the group Ecclesia Dei of St.Joseph forums before, but I was blocked by the administrator just because my thoughts and position were different from the others.
I leave the judgment to our good Lord.
[Hello Fr.Abe,]
ReplyDeleteHELLO ANONYMOUS,
[I could not tolerate your harsh comments against the Society of Saint Pius X.]
IF YOU CANNOT TOLERATE IT THEN LEAVE IT.
I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT I ALSO DO NOT TOLERATE THE WAY YOUR FOLLOWERS ARE ATTACKING OUR POPES, BISHOPS, VATICAN II AND THE MASS OF POPE PAUL VI. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE HURT DON'T THROW STONES ON OTHERS.
[You are being unfair.]
IT IS YOU WHO IS BEING UNFAIR. SSPX SUPPORTERS ARE ACTIVELY ATTACKING OUR BELOVED MASS AND OUR POPES. WE CANNOT TOLERATE IT ANYMORE ALSO. THAT IS THE REASON WHY IT IS TIME FOR US TO FIGHT BIGHT IN THE WEB FORUMS AND IN THE BLOGSPHERE.
[How could a priest uttered such kind of harsh and unfounded statements?]
WELL, IT IS FOUNDED ON THE FACT THAT YOUR SUPPORTERS ARE FOND OF ATTACKING THE PERSONS AND RITES SO DEAR TO US. YOU ARE SPEAKING AS IF YOU ARE IGNORANT OF THESE THINGS. DON'T PLAY AS IF YOU ARE THE VICTIM HERE.
[You wrote and I quote, "THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE DEFENDING THE CHURCH AGAINST THE RH BILL. THE CATHOLIC APOLOGISTS INCLUDING MY PERSON AND THIS BLOG AND THE MEMBERS OF DEFENSORES FIDEI AND CATHOLIC FAITH DEFENDERS WHO ARE 99% LAY ARE DEFENDING THE CHURCH. WE NEVER HEARD ANY OF THE SSPX PRIESTS OR SUPPORTERS DEFENDING THE CHURCH IN PUBLIC FORUM. THEY SIMPLY JOIN THE ENEMIES."]
I STAND BY WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN.
[For your information, Our Lady of Victories Church in Quezon City under the SSPX is very much active in opposing the Reproductive Health Bill.]
ReplyDeleteREALLY? IS YOUR ACTIVITIES CONTRA RH BILL COMMENSURATE WITH THE ATTACKS YOU ARE THROWING AGAINST VATICAN II AND THE MASS OF POPE PAUL VI?
WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS A DROP IN A BUCKET. YOU ARE NOT IN THE FOREFRONT. BESIDES YOU ARE SUSPECT. THE PRO-RH BILL AND THE SSPX HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON. WHAT? DEEP-SEATED OPPOSITION TO THE SERVANT OF GOD, HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI, OF BLESSED MEMORY... THE PROPHET OF MORALITY AND LIFE IN THE CONTEMPORARY PERIOD.
BY KEEP ON ATTACKING AND ATTACKING VATICAN II AND THE DECISIONS OF POPE PAUL VI YOU HAVE HELPED IN UNDERMINING THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH AND OF THE POPE. THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME WAR STRATEGY OF THE PRO-RH BILL. REJECTION OF THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE IN MORAL ISSUES, WHILE THE SSPX REJECTS THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE IN LITURGICAL MATTERS.
[How?
ReplyDeleteLast Sunday, through the effort of Rev. Fr. Onoda, we invited Dra.Ligaya Acosta, the Executive Director of Pro-Life International for Asia and Oceania.]
HA, HA, HA... YOU ARE USING THE PRO-LIFE GROUPS WHO ARE COMPOSED OF CATHOLICS LOYAL TO THE TEACHINGS OF POPE PAUL VI WHILE YOU ARE INFESTING THE CHURCH WITH YOUR THEATRICS AGAINST THE SAME POPE. YOU HAVE THE SHAME TO CALL ON THE FAITHFUL SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF POPE PAUL VI IN ORDER TO GAIN A SEMBLANCE OF LEGITIMACY IN THE CATHOLIC WORLD.
EXCUSE ME. WE DO NOT BUY YOUR HYPOCRISY.
[Dra.Ligaya Acosta gave a conference after our 9:00 AM Sung Mass.]
AS LONG AS THE SSPX IS THE EPITOME OF REBELLION AGAINST THE TEACHINGS OF POPE PAUL VI YOUR SUNG MASS SHALL REMAIN ILLICIT...ILLEGAL.
[She even praised the Latin Mass and the SSPX for their efforts.]
YOUR EFFORTS ARE NICE BUT ESSENTIALLY HYPOCRITICAL.
[Also present during the conference was Atty.Jo Imbong, the executive secretary of the Legal office of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines and consultant to the CBCP Episcopal Commission on Family and Life.]
ReplyDeleteHA, HA, HA... IMAGINE, THE SSPX REFUSES TO SUBMIT TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE LOCAL BISHOPS THEN YOU WILL CALL THE PERSONNEL OF THESE SAME LOCAL BISHOPS JUST TO DEODORIZE YOUR ILLEGAL AND ROTTEN SOCIETY.
YOUR SUPPORTERS ARE CALLING THE PHILIPPINE BISHOPS AS LIBERALS, PROMOTERS OF LITURGICAL ABUSES, ETC. THEN SUDDENLY YOU WILL CALL ON THEIR ARMS TO PUT MAKE UP ON YOUR MORAL FACADE. WHAT A HYPOCRISY!
[See that?]
THAT IS SUPERFICIAL. READ ALL YOUR PUBLISHED MATERIALS AND YOUR WEBSITES AND THOSE MADE BY YOUR FOLLOWERS ALL CONCENTRATED ON CRITICS AGAINST POPE PAUL VI, THE VATICAN II AND THE PAULINE MASS. THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH IS WHOLE AND SUBSTANTIALLY INTERCONNECTED. IF YOU QUESTION OUR LITURGY AND COUNCIL THEN YOU UNDERMINE ITS MORAL TEACHINGS AND ITS CANONICAL AUTHORITY. FOR THAT REASON YOUR PRO-LIFE ACTIVITY IS HYPOCRITICAL AND SUPERFICIAL.
BECAUSE OF YOUR 'DOBLE-CARA' SYNDROME: PRO-HUMANAE VITAE ALLEGEDLY AND ANTI-POPE PAUL VI CLEARLY, YOUR SHOW IS A VAUDEVILLE.
[ Your accusations were baseless.]
AS LONG AS YOUR SOCIETY IS NOT IN FULL COMMUNION WITH THE POPE AND THE HOLY SEE AND YOU ARE CANONICALLY UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THE LOCAL BISHOPS THEN YOUR CLAIM IS A NON-SENSE MASQUERADE.
[And to give you more,through the efforts of Rev.Fr.Ghela, SSPX, we also had the privileged to interview Former Manila Mayor Lito Atienza.]
HA, HA, HA... YOU INTERVIEWED MAYOR LITO ATIENZA AND SUDDELY YOU ARE HELPING THE PRO-LIFE CAUSE. HA, HA, HA...
EVEN IF YOU INTERVIEWED HIM A MILLION TIMES BUT IF YOU ARE NOT SUBORDINATED TO THE POPE THAT INTERVIEW IS BUT A MOCKERY OF THE REAL MESSAGE AND GOAL OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. YOU ARE STILL AN INSPIRATION TO OUR ENEMIES WHOSE GOAL IS TO UNDERMINE THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH AND OF THE POPE AND OF THE BISHOPS.
[He gave his support for our Prayer Crusade against the Reproductive Health Bill.]
OF COURSE, HE WILL DO THAT. IN THE UNITED STATES OUR PRO-LIFE MOVEMENTS LINK ARMS WITH THE BAPTISTS AND PROTESTANTS WHO OPPOSE ABORTIONS. YOU ARE NOT THAT FAR FROM THOSE GROUPS AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT IN FULL COMMUNION WITH THE POPE.
[Here's the link of the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Or8PUTh54&feature=email]
VIDEOS CAN BE EASILY MADE AND INTERVIEWS CAN BE DONE EASILY AS WELL. BUT THE REAL MEASURE OF A TRUE AND GENUINE PRO-LIFE CATHOLIC IS 'COMMUNION' AND FIDELITY WITH THE SUCCESSOR OF PETER.
[We are also inviting you to attend our Eucharistic Adoration.]
I DO NOT ATTEND ILLICIT [ILLEGAL] MASSES. I CONSIDER IT A MOCKERY OF EVERYTHING I HOLD AS SACRED. I WILL NEVER JOIN THE LIKES OF YOU. NEVER IN MY DREAMS AND NEVER IN MY ASPIRATIONS.
[Instead of spreading false accusations against the SSPX, why not join us in prayers?]
YOU ARE ANTI-ECUMENISM. YOU HATE IT WHEN WE JOIN THOSE WHO ARE NOT IN COMUNIONION WITH THE CHURCH. WHY THEN DO I HAVE TO JOIN YOU IN PRAYERS WHEN YOU ARE NOT IN FULL COMMUNION WITH US?
[Father, hope you will watch your words and statements first.]
I CHOSE MY WORDS CAREFULLY AND MY STATEMENTS. I MEAN WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT YOUR SOCIETY. THE MORE I MEET PEOPLE FOLLOWING YOUR GROUP THE MORE I FIND YOUR SOCIETY DISGUSTING AND ABOMINABLE.
[As priest, you are expected to behave in a holy way even to your so called enemies.]
I AM FILLED WITH HOLY INDIGNATION AGAINST YOUR HYPOCRISIES.
[Thank you very much.]
THANKS BUT NO THANKS.
[Yours in Jesus, Mary and Joseph,]
JESUS, MARY AND JOSEPH WERE IN COMMUNION WITH PETER. I HOPE MENTIONING THESE HOLY NAMES SHALL LEAD YOU TO FULL COMMUNION WITH THE BISHOP OF ROME.
"Can it be completely mistaken to work to break down obstinacy and narrowness, and to make space for what is positive and retrievable for the whole?
ReplyDelete...
All the same, I do not think that they would have chosen the priesthood if, alongside various distorted and unhealthy elements, they did not have a love for Christ and a desire to proclaim him and, with him, the living God. Can we simply exclude them, as representatives of a radical fringe, from our pursuit of reconciliation and unity? What would then become of them?
Certainly, for some time now, and once again on this specific occasion, we have heard from some representatives of that community many unpleasant things - arrogance and presumptuousness, an obsession with one-sided positions, etc.
Yet to tell the truth, I must add that I have also received a number of touching testimonials of gratitude which clearly showed an openness of heart. But should not the great Church also allow herself to be generous in the knowledge of her great breadth, in the knowledge of the promise made to her?
Should not we, as good educators, also be capable of overlooking various faults and making every effort to open up broader vistas? And should we not admit that some unpleasant things have also emerged in Church circles?
At times one gets the impression that our society needs to have at least one group to which no tolerance may be shown; which one can easily attack and hate." - Pope Benedict XVI, March 10, 2009.
Dude said:
ReplyDeleteI DO NOT ATTEND ILLICIT [ILLEGAL] MASSES. I CONSIDER IT A MOCKERY OF EVERYTHING I HOLD AS SACRED. I WILL NEVER JOIN THE LIKES OF YOU. NEVER IN MY DREAMS AND NEVER IN MY ASPIRATIONS.
well, you should join now Dude 80% of CFD members are now SSPX simpathizers hehehe....
Kuya
The test of humility is obedience to the church authority.
ReplyDelete[At times one gets the impression that our society needs to have at least one group to which no tolerance may be shown; which one can easily attack and hate." - Pope Benedict XVI, March 10, 2009.]
ReplyDeleteTHE POPE IS SPEAKING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NOT TO THE SSPX.
[well, you should join now Dude 80% of CFD members are now SSPX simpathizers hehehe...]
ReplyDeleteHA, HA, HA... YOU ARE FREE TO HALLUCINATE. BECAUSE I AM THE NATIONAL SPIRITUAL DIRECTOR OF CFD AND I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT ONLY VERY FEW MISGUIDED FOLKS HAVE BEEN DECEIVED BY YOUR SOCIETY. IN FACT, MANY OF THOSE YOU THOUGHT TO HAVE JOINED YOU HAVE PERSONALLY EXPRESSED GRATITUDE TO ME FOR SHOWING THEM THE EVIL THAT IS PRESENT IN YOUR ILLICIT AND UNCANONICAL SOCIETY. HE, HE, HE... YOU CAN DECEIVE THEM FOR A TIME BUT NOT ALWAYS. THAT WAS BEFORE WHEN THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW TO ANSWER YOUR DECEPTIONS. HA, HA, HA...
NOW, THEY KNOW THE TRUE COLORS OF YOUR ILLICIT AND UNCANONICAL SOCIETY.
While I do not understand Latin, it is not an impairment because the missal contains english translations. Others may also place a tagalog translation if they want. Therefore, to say that nobody understands the TLM is no longer in touch with reality.
ReplyDeleteMoreover, there are uneducated saints in the Church that do not understand latin but only lived and obeyed the catechism of the Church and increase their love for the Mass. Was it then by understanding the exact meaning of the language that made them saints? Or was it God's grace?
The advantage of celebrating in one language and norms will enforce Uniformity and shall allow greater participation when one goes from one town or country to another.
You said that we can criticize without malice. But what you are saying against the SSPX is clearly malicious and misleading. The very fact that you are saying those blatant comments about the group is a sheer manifestation of your ignorance on the real issues concerning them, the issues between Rome and the SSPX.
ReplyDeletePlease stop pretending that you know everything about the matter because it will only display your ignorance and repugnance to truth. And the truth is, among other things, you know very little, if not nothing at all.
You should go to Rome and discuss with the experts of this matter rather than make your own judgments and articles based and taken only from within your biased resources.
When Pope Benedict XVI allowed the use of Latin Mass, who reacted too much? Who were and are against it? Are they not your fellows? Now who is being disobedient to the Pope?
The SSPX is only trying to fight what is right, to perpetuate the Latin Mass and Catholic Doctrines. They are only protecting it. They are not making their own doctrines and truths. They are not making a parallel Church. They are still within the bosom of the Catholic Church whether you agree with it or not.
If they seem "stubborn" and "rebellious", it is only because "stubborn" and "rebellious" people in the modern Church continue to poison Her. Their "rebellion" exists only because your refusal to accept the truth exists.
Of course, I don't expect you to agree on this. That would be the end of your blog. But the truth will always prevail. Maybe not now, but certainly, it will.
[You said that we can criticize without malice. But what you are saying against the SSPX is clearly malicious and misleading.]
ReplyDeleteI AM ONLY RESPONDING TO THE ATTACKS PERPETRATED BY YOUR FOLLOWERS AGAINST THE POPE, THE VATICAN II AND THE PAULINE MASS. IF YOU DON'T WANT STONES TO BE THROWN AT YOU DON'T THROW IT ON US. DO YOU THINK THAT WE WILL JUST STOMACH YOUR ACCUSATIONS AGAINST OUR VERNACULAR MASS SITTING DOWN. NOW WAY. WE WILL FIGHT YOU ALL THE WAY.
[The very fact that you are saying those blatant comments about the group is a sheer manifestation of your ignorance on the real issues concerning them, the issues between Rome and the SSPX.]
IT IS YOU WHO IS IGNORANT. LOOK AT YOU, YOU ARE HIDING YOUR IDENTITY LIKE A DEMON. YOU ARE AFRAID TO COME OUT IN THE OPEN JUST LIKE THE ANTI-CATHOLICS LURKING IN HERE. YOU ARE POSSESSED BY THE SAME DEMON OF REBELLION AGAINST THE POPE AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
[Please stop pretending that you know everything about the matter because it will only display your ignorance and repugnance to truth.]
IF I AM IGNORANT ABOUT THE MATTER YOU ARE AN IDIOT ABOUT IT. UNTIL NOW YOU CANNOT PROVIDE US WITH VALID REASONS TO SUPPORT THE REBELLION OF LEFEBVRE YOUR WACKY OLD FOOL.
[And the truth is, among other things, you know very little, if not nothing at all.]
HA, HA, HA... REALLY? THAT IS WHY YOU ARE HIDING YOUR IDENTITY BECAUSE YOU ARE AFRAID PEOPLE WILL SEE HOW STUPID AND IGNORANT YOU ARE. SSPX ARE FOND OF PRETENDING TO BE GOOD IN LITURGY AND IN TRADITION BUT WHEN THEY ARE QUESTIONED THEY ARE MOSTLY IDIOTS ABOUT THE MATTER.
[You should go to Rome and discuss with the experts of this matter rather than make your own judgments and articles based and taken only from within your biased resources.]
I AM ONLY ANSWERING THE SSPX SUPPORTERS WHO ARE APPEARING HERE. THESE IS THE REALITY. THOSE IN ROME ARE DEALING ON THE SAME PROBLEM ON DIFFERENT LEVEL. I AM RESPONDING AND DOING MY JOB ON MY OWN LEVEL. UNLESS THE SSPX STOP ATTACKING THE POPE AND THE BISHOPS AND THE VATICAN II THEN WE WILL RESPOND ACCORDINGLY.
[When Pope Benedict XVI allowed the use of Latin Mass, who reacted too much? Who were and are against it? Are they not your fellows? Now who is being disobedient to the Pope?]
ReplyDeleteWHEN THE POPE ALLOWED THE TLM HE PROVED THAT THE SSPX ARE HYPOCRITES AND TREACHEROUS. THE POPE ALLOWS THE TLM BUT THE SSPX ARE LIKE DEMONS WHO REJECT THE PAULINE MASS. SINCE THE SSPX ARE IMMOVABLE SO THOSE WHO LOVE THE PAULINE MASS RETURNED THE FAVOR AND ALSO STOOD THEIR GROUND TO CELEBRATE ONLY THE PAULINE MASS. HA, HA, HA... WHY ARE YOU ANGRY? THEY ARE ONLY APPLYING THE PRINCIPLE THAT THEY'VE LEARNED FROM YOU.
YOU SEE, YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO BE STRONG AND DEFIANT. WHEN THE TLM WAS DISALLOWED FOR A WHILE WITHOUT ABROGATION MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF CATHOLICS ACCEPTED THE CHANGE. VERY FEW LIKE YOUR WACKY OLD FOOL LEFEBVRE PROTESTED. OTTAVIANI, SIRI AND OTHERS EVEN REFUSED TO JOIN YOUR WACKY OLD FOOL. IF THE VERNACULAR MASS SHALL BE REMOVED IN FAVOR OF TLM THERE WILL BE PROTESTS OF GREAT MAGNITUDE.
WE ARE NOT DISOBEYING THE POPE BECAUSE WE ARE CELEBRATING THE PAULINE MASS. WE ARE ONLY SHOWING TO THE SSPX THAT THEY CANNOT IMPOSE THEIR WILL ON US. IF THEY REJECT THE PAULINE MASS THEN THEY WILL ALSO BE REJECTED. QUID PRO QUO.
[The SSPX is only trying to fight what is right, to perpetuate the Latin Mass]
YOU ARE PERPETUATING THE REBELLION OF LUCIFER IN THE FORM OF THE REBELLION OF LEFEBVRE.
THE CHURCH HAS NO OBLIGATION TO PERPETUATE THE LATIN MASS. IT ONLY HAS THE OBLIGATION TO PERPETUATE THE HOLY MASS IN ANY APPROVED RITES AND LANGUAGE.
[and Catholic Doctrines.]
REBELLION TO THE POPE IS NOT PART OF CATHOLIC DOCTRINES. WHAT YOU ARE PERPETUATING AND UPHOLDING IS PROTESTANT DOCTRINE.
[They are only protecting it.]
YOU ARE NOT PROTECTING IT YOU ARE DESTROYING IT. A POPELESS SOCIETY IS NOT PROTECTION OF TRADITION BUT AN ABOMINATION TO IT.
[They are not making their own doctrines and truths.]
ReplyDeleteYOU ARE. YOU ARE TEACHING THE PEOPLE THAT CATHOLICS SHOULD DISOBEY THE POPE IN FAVOR OF A SATANICALLY FOUNDED SOCIETY. YOU WANT TO UNDERMINE THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE AND THAT OF AN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL APPROVED BY THE POPES.
[They are not making a parallel Church.]
IN WORDS BUT IN ACTION YOU ARE A PARALLEL CHURCH. BECAUSE THE HEAD OF YOUR ORGANIZATION IS NOT THE POPE BUT BERNARD FELLAY WHOM THE POPE CANNOT COMMAND TO DO HIS BIDDING. THAT IS WHY THERE IS DIALOGUE. YOUR WORDS ARE ONLY TRICKS BUT THE REALITY IS DIFFERENT. THE SSPX IN PARANAQUE IS A PARALLEL CHURCH WITH THE DIOCESES IN METRO MANILA.
[They are still within the bosom of the Catholic Church whether you agree with it or not.]
THEY ARE NOT UNTIL THEY ARE FULLY UNITED WITH THE POPE. UNTIL NOW YOU ARE STILL OUTSIDE THE BOSOM OF THE CHURCH. YOU ARE STILL IN THE BOSOM OF LUCIFER.
[If they seem "stubborn" and "rebellious", it is only because "stubborn" and "rebellious" people in the modern Church continue to poison Her. Their "rebellion" exists only because your refusal to accept the truth exists.]
HA, HA, HA... SO YOU ADMITTED THAT YOU ARE IN REBELLION. GOOD THEN. YOU ROT IN HELL WITH YOUR REBELLION.
[Of course, I don't expect you to agree on this.]
DEFINITELY I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU. THERE ARE ONLY FEW LUNATICS IN THIS COUNTRY AND 99.9 OF THEM ARE ATTENDING YOUR MASSES.
[That would be the end of your blog.]
HA, HA, HA... THIS BLOG IS ESTABLISHED FOR THE PROTESTANTS AND THE CULTS. IT HAS BEEN EXISTING FOR YEARS WITHOUT MENTIONING THE SSPX. WITH OR WITHOUT THE SSPX THIS BLOG IS READ BY THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. THE SSPX IS JUST A PIECE OF GARBAGE IN THE COLLECTION OF TOPICS IN THIS BLOG.
[But the truth will always prevail. Maybe not now, but certainly, it will.]
TRUTH SHALL PREVAIL. POPE JOHN XXIII IS NOW BLESSED AND JOHN PAUL THE GREAT WILL SOON BE BEATIFIED. BUT LEFEBVRE IS ROTTING IN HELL WITH HIS CORPSE.
DECADES HAVE PASSED BUT THE SSPX IS STILL AS SEMINAL AS IT WAS STARTED. THE OPUS DEI HAS MORE MEMBERS AND FOLLOWERS. THE CHARISMATIC GROUPS IN THE CHURCH ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL.
THE SSPX ROTS AND IT WILL ROT ALL THE MORE IN THE FUTURE.
[While I do not understand Latin, it is not an impairment because the missal contains english translations.]
ReplyDeleteTRANSLATIONS NO MATTER HOW CORRECTLY DONE IS NEVER AT PAR WITH THE VERNACULAR LANGUAGE. WHY SPEND FOR MORE PAPERS AND INK TO HAVE TRANSLATIONS WHEN THE HOLY MASS CAN BE CELEBRATED IN VERNACULAR LANGUAGE AS THE LORD JESUS AND THE APOSTLES DID.
[Others may also place a tagalog translation if they want.]
WE SOLVED THAT PROBLEM ALREADY. WE USE THE VERNACULAR.
[ Therefore, to say that nobody understands the TLM is no longer in touch with reality.]
THOSE WHO IMPOSE A DEAD LANGUAGE FOR A LIVING CHURCH IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY. THEY ARE LITURGICAL ZOMBIES.
[Moreover, there are uneducated saints in the Church that do not understand latin but only lived and obeyed the catechism of the Church and increase their love for the Mass.]
BECAUSE THEY OBEYED. WHEN THE LORD SPOKE IN ARAMAIC THEY OBEYED. WHEN THE MASS WAS IN GREEK THEY OBEYED. WHEN THE MASS WAS IN LATIN THEY OBEYED. WHEN THE MASS WAS IN SLAVONIC LANGUAGE THE SAINTS OBEYED. WHEN THE MASS WAS TRANSLATED INTO VERNACULAR THE SAINTS LIKE MOTHER TERESA, SIS. LUCIA... OBEYED AS WELL.
ONLY LUCIFER AND HIS MINIONS DO NOT OBEY. THAT IS WHY LEFEBVRE DOES NOT FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF THE SAINTS BUT THAT OF LUCIFER. HIS WAS A LITURGICAL REBELLION AND A CANONICAL DISOBEDIENCE.
[Was it then by understanding the exact meaning of the language that made them saints? Or was it God's grace?]
GRACE BUILDS ON NATURE. THE SAINTS OF OLD RECEIVED GRACE PROPER FOR THEIR SITUATION AND CIRCUMSTANCES. SINCE THE CHURCH IMPOSES LATIN THEN SO THE GRACE OF GOD WORKS IN LATIN NOW THAT THE CHURCH USES THE VERNACULARS THE SAME GRACES ARE WORKING IN VERNACULAR MASSES AS WELL.
THE GRACE OF GOD IS NOT LIMITED IN LATIN ALONE. IT IS ALSO PRESENT IN HEBREW, ARAMAIC, GREEK, LATIN, SYRIAC, COPTIC, SLAVIC AND ALL THE LANGUAGES OF THE WORLD USED BY THE CHURCH FOR HER DOCTRINES AND LITURGY.
[The advantage of celebrating in one language and norms will enforce Uniformity]
THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF CHURCH UNITY AS HAVING ONE GOD, ONE LORD, ONE FATHER, ONE SPIRIT, ONE CHURCH, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM BUT NEVER ONE LANGUAGE. EVEN THE HOLY SPIRIT DIDN'T IMPOSE ONE LANGUAGE DURING HIS DESCENT ON PENTECOST. HE ONLY PROVIDED ONE UNDERSTANDING WHILE PRESERVING THE VARIOUS LANGUAGE OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE THEN.
[and shall allow greater participation when one goes from one town or country to another.]
THE NUMBER OF THOSE WHO ARE TRAVELLING OUTSIDE THEIR COUNTRY IS VERY FEW WHILE MILLIONS AND MILLIONS STAY IN THEIR HOMELAND. THIS ARGUMENT IS VERY CHEAP.
IF ONE KNOWS THE LITURGY BY HEART IN VERNACULAR HE DOES NOT NEED LATIN IN OTHER COUNTRIES. HE CAN FOLLOW THE LITURGY BY FOLLOWING THE SEQUENCE OF THE MASS IN VERNACULAR.
Father, while your desire to defend the Catholic Church may be laudable, your AD HOMINEM strategy does not appeal. The savage and barbaric humor does not inspire. Why can't the arguments be kept intellectual? Ad hominem is a fallacious reasoning which is often resorted to by people who are desperate and bankrupt of logical arguments and may appeal to brutes but not to intellectuals. The end does not justify the means. Teach with love and compassion, and "they'll know we are Christians by our love".
ReplyDeletePOPE PAUL VI AND MSGR. BUGNINI REMAINED SILENT AGAINST THE SSPX AND THE SEDEVACANTISTS. DID THEY LEARN CHARITY TOWARD THE POPE AND ARCH. BUGNINI? NO! THE MORE THEY ATTACK THEM.
ReplyDeleteTHESE ENEMIES OF THE POPE ARE LIKE PARASITES BECAUSE THEY ARE DRAWING BLOOD FROM THE CHURCH WHO IS SILENT AND CHARITABLE TO THEM. IT IS TIME TO CALL THE SPADE A SPADE. IF THEY ARE CALLING THE POPE MODERNISTS IT IT TIME TO CALL THEM LITURGICAL REBELS.
IF YOU WANT TO PRACTICE CHARITY ON THEM FINE, DO IT. I HOPE YOU CAN LEAD THEM TO THE TRUTH BY DOING SO.
HERETICS, SCHISMATICS AND REBELS ARE NOT TO BE TREATED WITH KID GLOVES. THEY MUST BE CONFRONTED WITH FULL FORCE IN ALL FIELDS. THESE TRAITORS MUST REALIZE THAT CATHOLICS WILL NO LONGER TAKE THEIR ACCUSATIONS AND LIES SITTING DOWN. IF THEY CALL THE POPE MODERNIST ON MY FACE I WILL CALL LEFEBVRE LUCIFERIAN.
Ednard Kim said...
ReplyDeleteWas Saint Jerome teaching faith and morals? was he the pope to be gifted with infallibility? Translating books are not part of infallible gift of the holy Spirit.
The pope, Ex Cathedra procalimed that the work of saint Jerome contained no Error. The Pope validated the error-free of St Jerome's work thus his work is perfect although not infallible.
Declaring a book error free does not mean that it is perfect. The Pope simply declares that there is nothing contrary to the faith in that translation but the Pope never stated that it was a perfect translation.
ReplyDeleteIn what document did the Pope declared the works of St. Jerome as perfect, Ex Cathedra?
The pope, Ex Cathedra procalimed that the work of saint Jerome contained no Error. The Pope validated the error-free of St Jerome's work thus his work is perfect although not infallible.
ReplyDeleteEx cathedra? When bishop give their Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur in the translations of bible or theological books it only means that a book or pamphlet is free of doctrinal or moral error. No implication is contained therein that those who have granted the nihil obstat or imprimatur agree with the contents, opinions or statements expressed.
That also applies to the time of Saint Jerome when pope Damasus gave his approval to the translations of Saint Jerome. Theologically speaking there are no doctrinal error but it does not mean it is free from grammatical error.
VERY GOOD BRO. EDNARD. HE, HE, HE... YOU ARE BECOMING A VERY GOOD THEOLOGIAN.
ReplyDelete