Kapatas vs Redge23 Re: Communion of Saints

A Magnificent Altarpiece or Retablo

[Note: The following is the text of my debate against Redge23, a baptist and an anti-catholic debater from Bereans. net Forum.  This debate happened last year and it is only now that we will be presenting this debate in full.  Notice the changes in Redge23's demeanor as the debate progresses.  The debate is long and bloody so I ask the indulgence of everyone. - FLHL] Redge 23 Bishop Tagle: 4:40 "Ayon sa tradisyon ng simbahan, ang mga banal na tao o tinatawag nating saints... naniniwala tayo na kapiling na sila ng Diyos...Naniniwala tayo sa Communion of saints...kaya maari tayong manawagan sa kanila para ipagdasal tayo...intercession" Notice how the roman catholic church twisted the truths from the scripture. They rather resort to their own traditions rather than paying attention to the Holy Writ. The scripture says: Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness. Kapatas:

You have it all wrong. We do not ask our saints TO SAVE US. Obviously they don't have that kind of power. What we asked to our saints is to intercede for us. Because the bond of the departed brothers and sisters to the community of believers here on earth still exist. Christian unity transcends death.

The problem with you is that you are asking for a physical answer from the already spiritual beings. Somekind of twisted naive realism. Of course their response is also spiritual, in the order of the supernatural, and therefore accessible only thru faith. Our departed brothers may not be physically present but they are with us in spirit, just like St. Paul said in his epistle:

Col 2:5
For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

Surely, the Virgin Mary, St. Peter and Paul, and all the saints are with us, not in the flesh but in spirit. They are still part of the church even though they no longer with us in the flesh. If that is so, why not ask them for intercessory prayers? Afterall, the Lord is the God of the living and ALL ARE ALIVE TO HIM. (cf. Luke 20:38)

Redge 23 There is a large chunk of difference between merely asking you friends(who are alive)to pray for you and necromancy. It is not prohibited to ask a brother to pray for you since the new testament church members prayed for each other. Take note that James was talking to LIVING people. James 5:16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." The problem is asking the dead to aid you just like what Saul did when he sought to speak to Prophet Samuel (who was already dead) for help 1 Samuel 28:08-16 8And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

Kapatas:

There is no necromancy from us because we are not trying to worship nor invoke the physical presence of the departed. We are just asking for prayers from them. They are more in the position to hear our prayer because they are no longer limited by time and space. They are already supernatural beings, their souls were already perfected.

The bible states that prayers of just men have powerful effect. (cf. Jas 5:16) The Lord hears the prayers of righteous men. (cf. 1 Peter 3:12) Since Virgin Mary, St. Peter and St. Paul and other saints were righteous people, why not ask them for prayers?

Simon the magician asked St. Peter and John for intercessory prayers. Nowhere in scriptures do we see that both condemned said actuations of Simon. By the way, St. Peter and St. John are catholic saints.

Acts 8:24
At sumagot si Simon at sinabi, Ipanalangin ninyo ako sa Panginoon, upang huwag mangyari sa akin ang alin mang bagay sa mga sinasabi ninyo.

The text shows that asking saints for prayers are not prohibited but rather demonstrated in the bible.

Redge23 Who is supposed to be our model? Hebrews 12 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Kapatas:

This is not an "either or" proposition between Christ and the saints. Christ is the first model of course. But other than him, there are other followers of Christ who exhibited commendable virtue and way of living which are worth emulating. The bible encourages christians to emulate them as well:

Heb 13:7
Alalahanin ninyo ang nangagkaroon ng pagpupuno sa inyo na siyang nangagsalita sa inyo ng salita ng Dios; at sa pagdidilidili ng wakas ng kanilang pamumuhay, ay inyong tularan ang kanilang pananampalataya.

The bible teaches that we have to remember the saints and the way they live, and TO EMULATE THEM. Tularan sila. Letra por letra kinokontra ka ng kasulatan eh.

Redge23 Really? "Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. amen" This prayer makes no sense if you don't recognise the SALVIFIC ROLE of Mary. Then why do you call Saint Mary Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix.

Kapatas

You are overreading it. Obviously your preconceived bias against the church leads you to such preposterous speculation. That phrase from the prayer “Hail Mary” is simply a supplication to Virgin Mary to PRAY FO US TO GOD, not to FORGIVE US OF OUR SINS because we know that it is God who will forgive sins. Obviously, there is a world of difference right?

Redge23 Does this mean that PAUL knew what's will be going on with the church when he's dead? Paul knows the "Tanakh" I don't think he would have missed this! Psalm 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Kapatas

That verse refers to what will happen to our physical body when we die. Of course, our earthly ideas will cease. But the scripture is also clear that while the body dies, the spirit returns to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And that spirit is alive and conscious. Not D-E-A-D as in dead.

Revelation 7:10-14
10 At nagsisigawan ng tinig na malakas, na nangagsasabi, Ang pagliligtas ay sumaaming Dios na nakaupo sa luklukan, at sa Cordero.

11 At ang lahat ng mga anghel ay nangakatayo sa palibot ng luklukan, at ng matatanda at ng apat na nilalang na buhay; at sila'y nangagpatirapa sa harapan ng luklukan, at nangagsisamba sa Dios,

12 Na nangagsasabi, Siya nawa: Pagpapala at kaluwalhatian, at karunungan, at pagpapasalamat, at karangalan, at kapangyarihan, at kalakasan, nawa ang sumaaming Dios magpakailan kailan man. Siya nawa.

13 At sumagot ang isa sa matatanda na, nagsasabi sa akin, Ang mga ito na nangadaramtan ng mapuputing damit, ay sino-sino at saan nagsipanggaling?

14 At sinabi ko sa kaniya, Panginoon ko, Ikaw ang nakakaalam. At sinabi niya sa akin, Ang mga ito'y ang nanggaling sa malaking kapighatian, at nangaghugas ng kanilang mga damit, at pinaputi sa dugo ng Cordero.

That episode is in heaven, with God sitting in his throne. The elder, which is a spirit knows what's going on. These verses show that spirits of long departed are conscious. They know. How come you don't know?

Redge23 Please don't accuse me of asking for a physical answer from the already spiritual beings. I have never raised that.

Kapatas

Oh yes. That is the logical conclusion of your argumentation. You are against praying to the long departed for the reason that they are DEAD. So you are not really against praying to someone other than God. In fact, you believe that it is ok to pray for living brothers. Then you cite a verse in psalm stating that the thoughts of dead person are already gone because they are dead. What does that mean? It means you are against praying to the departed because they can no longer respond physically as in contrast to the living. In a sense, you are demanding physical answers from spiritual beings. Since you're absurd demand remained unsatisfied, you attacked our practices of praying to the saints.

Redge23 My friend you have misquoted Luke 20:38. That text speaks of the resurrection and therefore quoting that text on the topic in question is out of context. Read it again.

Kapatas

Whether the text talks about resurrection or something else, it doesn't deny the fact that as far as the Lord is concerned, the saints are ALIVE. It is very plain in the text so you can't deny that.

Redge23 After all, you don't ask Elijah and Moses to pray for you.

Kapatas

Why not? Moses and Elijah are considered saints in the Catholic Church. The church has no standing rule that praying to Moses or Elijah is prohibited.

Redge23 WoW! thats doctrinal gymnastics sir! please quote a scripture to back up your claim that the dead are not limited by time and space?

Kapatas

This is not doctrinal gymnastics. It is common sense grounded on scriptures. Spirits of saints are no longer constraint by physical limitations. So why treat them as if they are still bound by the physical laws of nature? Remember that these are spirits of righteous men made perfect (cf. Heb 12:23) If they are perfect, then they are no longer limited by physical evil or by the shortcomings of the physical world.

In the book of revelation, spirits of saints who were martyred for the sake of the gospel, were aware of what is happening here on earth. They are aware that the Lord has yet to avenge their death:

Revelation 6:9-10
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

What does the text tells us? It tells that souls of martyred saints are alive and conscious. They are even praying to God in a loud voice to avenge them because THEY KNOW that they have yet to be avenged. And when the retribution was exacted to the prostitute who corrupted the earth, these souls are rejoicing even singing songs of praise.

Revelation 19:1-2
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

So definitely souls in heaven are aware of what is happening here on earth.

Redge23 Have you read 1 Samuel 28:3-16? Saul was only seeking for Samuel's help.

Kapatas

Don't try to sugar coat what Saul did. What Saul did is necromancy. He tried to invoke the presence of the dead, even resulting to witchcraft to achieve the purpose. He tried to consult the spirits like what the "psychic mediums" do. Surely, to associate it to catholic practice of praying to the saints requires a vivid imagination and intestinal fortitude because it is tantamount to lying.

There is a world of difference between invoking the presence of the dead using witchcraft and the catholic practice of praying to the saints.

Redge23 Sir, kindly pay attention to the details of the text. Was Simon dead when he asked for intercession? Read again.

Kapatas

Does the bible have a provision that praying to saints is prohibited?

Spirits of saints are ALIVE as I demonstrated earlier, so why prohibit praying to them? If it is ok to pray to the saints when they are here on earth, then it is more fitting to ask them when they are in heaven with the Lord since they have found favor with God. The bible states that prayers of righteous men have powerful effect so why not ask for their help?

Redge23 Give me a text in the scripture where GOD allows the living to ask intercession from the departed ones. Notice that the texts you are quoting are always about two living parties where one asks for intercession and the other prays for the one who asks for it.

Kapatas

I'll do that if you can give verses which explicitly say that praying to the departed ones is a sin.

The spirits of saints are ALIVE in heaven. So asking prayers to the saints whether they are physically present here on earth or in heaven as spiritual beings is ok. Afterall, saints in heaven do have prayers:

Revelation 8:3-4
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Saints are capable of praying. So why not ask prayers to them?

Redge23 tsk tsk tsk Hebrews 13:7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. You are hardly reading. The scripture commands us to imitate THEIR faith , NOT the person having that faith.

Kapatas

I'm reading alright. My bible says "imitate their faith". Surely when you imitate the faith of the saints, you will imitate their way of living. You can't separate the faith to the person. This is not just about imitating the person for its own sake. You imitate the person because of his great faith.

Redge23 There is a great danger when one puts up his confidence in man than Yeshua.

Kapatas

Imitating the saints doesn't mean you no longer trust the Lord. This is not an "either or" proposition between Christ and the saints. Wag mong pagsabungin ang dalawa. You can still be a follower of christ while you imitate the saints. This what St. Paul said in his epistle:

1 Cor 11:1
Maging taga tulad kayo sa akin, na gaya ko naman kay Cristo.

Tularan daw si San Pablo eh gaya ng pagtulad niya kay Cristo. So you can imitate saints while still a follower of Christ.

Redge23 Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Kapatas

That's why you don't trust your pastors? You don't trust your church leaders? You don't trust St. Paul and the sacred authors? That is the danger of your "either or" proposition. Pinagsasabong mo yung hindi naman magkalaban.

Redge23 Why are we to imitate the kind of faith that the apostles have? Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Ah! The Word of God was right when it said that we are to imitate THEIR faith because the faith of the apostles did not originate from them, rather from GOD!

Kapatas

To imitate the faith of the saints is tantamount to imitating their way of living, their teachings, sayings. You can't separate the person to his faith. You can't imitate the faith of the person while rejecting his persona.

Redge23 Sir marunong akong mag tagalog! Alam ko po ang pagkakaiba ng TULARAN sa ALALAHANIN let's see... Hebrews 13:7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. Where in the passage did it says WE ARE TO EMULATE THEM? I don't think i'm the one perverting the scripture.

Kapatas

Marunong ka pala eh. So alam mo na hindi lang "alalahanin" ang nasa talata kundi rin "pagtulad". Eh di merong EMULATION. The text enjoined the believers to EMULATE the saints. Emulating the faith of saints means you will emulate their actions, will follow their teachings and examples.

This is what St. Paul said:

Philippians 4:9
Ang mga bagay na inyong natutuhan at tinanggap at narinig at nakita sa akin, ang mga bagay na ito ang gawin ninyo: at ang Dios ng kapayapaan ay sasa inyo.

May emulation o wala. Tagalog na yan ha? Pinagsasabong mo kasi si Cristo at mga santo. Hindi yan yung tipong isa lang dapat na pwedeng piliin. Christ is the first model of chirstians, but next to him, there are saints. The bible is very explicit that we have to imitate the saints.

Redge23 Sir I don't think I over read it. I'm not against the phrase "Hail Mary" because Gabriel said that. Please form your rebuttal on the issue given. If you really don't believe that saints have nothing to do with your salvation, then what is "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.Amen" for? Please don't make rebuttals on issues I did not even raise.

Kapatas

I'm not talking about just the phrase. If you bother to read carefully, I'm actually referring to your misconception of the prayer itself. Pray for us sinners is very different from forgive us our sins which is applicable only to the Lord. We asked Virgin Mary to pray for us, not to forgive us. There is a world of difference between asking someone to intercede for you to the Lord and asking a person to save you. If for you that is the same, then that’s your problem.

The Virgin Mother definitely has a role in human salvation since she agreed to God's Plan to conceive Christ. But we know also that it is the Lord that saves. That's why we don't have prayers like “Mary, saves us” or something to that effect.

Redge23 If you are a genuine roman catholic then you would not have missed this!: 5. And likewise in our own day, Mary, with the ever merciful affection so characteristic of her maternal heart, wishes, through her efficacious intercession with God, to deliver her children from the sad and grief-laden troubles, from the tribulations, the anxiety, the difficulties, and the punishments of God's anger which afflict the world because of the sins of men. Wishing to restrain and to dispel the violent hurricane of evils which, as We lament from the bottom of Our heart, are everywhere afflicting the Church, Mary desires to transform Our sadness into joy. The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.( St. Bernard, In Nativit. S. Mariae de Aquaeductu.)

Kapatas

Your argument is fallacious. Do you mean to say that catholics who have yet to read the document were not genuine catholics? How about catholics born prior to the release of this document you've posted? They are fake catholics then?

Don't make a rule that a catholic should suppose to read this particular text that you've posted in order to be a "genuine roman catholic". You are not in the position to determine who are genuine who are fake catholics.

The fact that Virgin Mary has to intercede means she doesn't have the actual power to grant the petitioner's request. She has to still pray to God. God is the one that grants the petitioners prayer. We put our trust to the Blessed Virgin because God trusted her, which is demonstrated when at the fullness of time, God entrusted Mary the role of conceiving the Messiah. If you are a genuine follower of God, you will follow God's example. If God trusted Virgin Mary, then by all means, you will also trust Virgin Mary as well. Those I know who distrust whom God trusted are the enemies of God.

The bible specifically states:

Ephesians 5:1
Kayo nga'y magsitulad sa Dios, na gaya ng mga anak na minamahal;

We have to follow the examples set by God. If God trusted Virgin Mary, then you must trust the Virgin Mother as well, that is if you are a follower of God.

Redge23 Sir, this is ridiculous! I did not claim that the dead is unconscious after his physical death! You should have got that to begin with if you are reading the hebrew text! Psalm 146:4 "His breath goeth forth he returneth to his earth in that very day his thoughts(esh-to-naw') perish" עֶשְׁתֹּנֹת (heb. eshtonah) - means thoughts or PLAN New Living Translation (©2007) renders: When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.

Kapatas

Then, you believe that the spirits of the dead are ALIVE and CONSCIOUS? That's a welcome development.

Redge23 Therefore when I quoted that text I meant that the dead cannot execute its will or whatever he has in mind.

Kapatas

Definitely because he is already dead. He cannot do physical action because his physical body is long gone. But his spirit is conscious and alive, and therefore capable of doing actions in the spiritual sense. One of that is to pray for others, especially those left here on earth. The Book of Revelations shows that saints do have prayers. But these saints were already saved and made perfect so for whom are their prayers? There prayers are for the people of God suffering here on earth!

Redge23 The dead cannot mediate on behalf of the living! I did not say that their souls are knocked unconscious after death like what J. Witnesses claim! Ezekiel 14:18 As I live, declares the Almighty LORD, not even Noah, Daniel, and Job could rescue their sons or daughters. They could rescue only themselves.

Kapatas

That verse in Ezekiel doesn't say anything about mediation or intercession. The text only shows that no man can save other man, because it is God who do the act of saving. The verse doesn't say that no man can intercede for others. Interceding and saving are two different things. You are overreading it really.

Redge23 Please avoid prejudgments if you do not have sufficient evidence to prove it.

Kapatas

I'm not prejudging you. I'm not even saying that you are like the Jehovah witnesses subscribing to soul sleep. You are actually the one who brought that. What I'm doing is simply stating biblical truths. The spirits of saints are ALIVE and CONSCIOUS. Is that prejudging already?

Redge23 I have already answered this. You were just clouded with your prejudices. Thank God I'm a Baptist and not someone from Watchtower in Brooklyn.

Kapatas

Yeah you claim to yourself that you're a baptist but you don't baptized people so your self-confessed tag is actually a misnomer.

Redge23 Who says I'm denying the text? You?... What I'm trying to get across was the text stating that God being the "God of the living" does not allow you to ascribe to Saint Mary the Office that SOLELY belongs to Christ.

Kapatas

And who says that I gave to Virgin Mary the Office of Christ? You are actually the one who is clouded with prejudice, to the point that you are putting words in my mouth.

Luke 20:38, be it refers to resurrection or something else doesn't deny the fact that as far as God is concerned, EVERYONE IS ALIVE TO HIM.

Luke 20:38
So the Lord isn't the God of the dead, but of the living. This means that everyone is alive as far as God is concerned.

It is very plain in the text. For God, everyone is alive. The saints even though their physical bodies have long died, are alive with God. They were not DEAD as in D-E-A-D. This is further reinforced by another text from the Gospel of John:

John 11:25
Jesus then said, "I am the one who raises the dead to life! Everyone who has faith in me will live, even if they die.

Definitely that verse refers to saints. They were ALIVE even though their physical bodies died because they have faith in Christ. If they were alive then they can intercede. They can pray to God on our behalf. That is because even though they are not with us here on earth, definitely the saints are thinking of their brothers left here.

1 Thessalonian 2:17
As for us brothers, when we were separated from you for a little while - not in our thoughts, of course but only in body - how we missed you and how hard we tried to see you again!

Definitely, wherever St. Paul is right now, he is thinking for the good of the church and his brothers in faith left here on earth. We may not be with him physically, but never in thoughts as he said. So saints are actually thinking of their brothers constantly. If that is the case, then saints praying to God for their brothers here on earth is not far fetched idea but a reality you have to live with.

The verse also added that he, referring to St. Paul, is very eager to see his brothers in faith.

how we missed you and how hard we tried to see you again!

Saints really wanted to see their brothers in faith. If here on earth, they can exert physical effort to realize this, in heaven, the only thing that they can do is to pray for their brothers so that they may endure in faith and be saved and be united with the community of saints in heaven.

Redge23 "... that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation." ( St. Bernard, In Nativit. S. Mariae de Aquaeductu.)

Kapatas

I don't buy that because you chopped the whole text. The phrase should be understood together with the whole message of the document. I'm just thinking your motivation for mangling the text. Desperation perhaps? he he he

Redge23 No. What I mean with "after you don't pray to Moses and Elijah", was you don't really give much importance to them just like what you do to other Patron saints.

Kapatas

Don't make preposterous claims and don't answer for us because you are not in the position to do so. What is your proof that we don't give Moses and Elijah importance? You better back your claims with proofs. The bible explicitly warns us not to become false witnesses.

Exodus 23:1
Huwag kang magkakalat ng kasinungalingan: huwag kang makikipagkayari sa masama, na maging saksi kang sinungaling.

Wag magkalat ng kasinungaligan daw. Bakit ka nagkakalat ng kasinungalingan?

Redge23 If Martin de Porres is the Patron Saint of Hairdressers , Cajetan Patron Saint of Unemployed people and Prophet Elijah the Patron saint of Marijuana (cannabis). What is Moses, Isaac, Haggai, Malachi Saint Patron of? see how Romanism mock around?

Kapatas

That is ignorance showing its ugly head. Where is the rule that you have to designate “someone” as patron of something in order for you to prove that you give that “someone” importance? Where is that rule? How come you don’t apply that rule to yourself?

Is your pastor important to you? Then why not make him as patron of something then? See? You newly-invented rule come crashing straight at you.

FYI, Prophet Elijah is considered a saint by the catholic church. We designate July 20 as his feast day:

"In Western Christianity, the Prophet Elijah is commemorated as a saint with a feast day on 20 July by the Roman Catholic Church"[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah]

Moses feast day is September 4 while Haggai is December 16. For those who have no specific feast days, the church designated November 1 as All Saints Day. Surely that includes Isaac and Malachi.

How about your baptist group? Do you give Elijah, Moses, Isaac, and Haggai importance? Then let's compare who gave them the most importance, your group or the Catholic Church. C'mon, shows us what you have done to them.

Redge23 Ah! No wonder why you guys believe that the souls of those who have departed could roam around the world without limit.

Kapatas

I didn't say that saints have no limit. What I stated was that saints, since they are already spiritual beings, are no longer limited by the physical laws of nature. There is a world of difference between the two but unfortunately, your hatred against the church blinded you to see the plain truth.

Redge23 Thanks to you, now the dead became gods! WOW! So much for your paganism!

Kapatas

Credit goes to your twisted imagination. lolz

I didn't said that saints are Gods, you are. Your logic fails big time for the simple reason that God is not the ONLY spiritual being. Spirits of saints and angels are spiritual beings as well, unbounded by the physical laws of nature. Are they God? No. But for you they are. Isn't it terrible?

Redge23 You said they are perfect and without limit. Really? THEN WHY DID ABRAHAM, BEING DEAD HAVE LIMITATIONS? Luke 16 . 26And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’

Kapatas

That verse talks about the the gap between hades and heaven. The gap is in spiritual sense. Not physical. Obviously, spirits are bounded by that spiritual gap. Even James Taylor knew that with the phrase "no angel born in hell..." in his American Pie song. How come you don't know?

Redge23 I have already answered this

Kapatas

No, you don't. You didn't even bother tackling the verses I've posted which prove that spirits of saints in heaven are ALIVE, CONSCIOUS, and are AWARE of what is happening here on earth. [cf. Rev. 6:9-10; 7:10-14; 19:1-2] It is as if you are allergic with those verses.

Redge23 No difference with what you guys do. "Asking help from a saint".

Kapatas

Not really, considering you've omitted an important point in the text in a desperate effort to equalize the church doctrine of communion of the saints with necromancy. How pathetic.

Saul didn't just asked help from prophet Samuel. He actually resorted to conjuring up the dead using witchcraft and black arts which is prohibited by God. Now that's the point you've omitted. That's dishonesty. Because the church doesn't resort to witchcraft nor engaged in conjuring up the dead when asking prayers to our saints. Church teaching regarding this matter is very clear as provided by the catechism:

CCC#2116
All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

The church is clearly against necromancy. It is documented unlike your baseless accusation. Asking prayers from the saints is different from resorting to black arts and the occult to summon/communicate with the spirit of the dead. You are mixing two different things like water and oil, which is pathetic.

Redge23 Yes!

Kapatas

Where in the bible you can find that asking prayers from saints is prohibited? Where?

Redge23 And so was Elijah! He was ALIVE wasn't he? Even though that saint is up in heaven, this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you.

Kapatas

Did I say that saints have power on their own? All power comes from God. The fact that they need to INTERCEDE and PRAY to God on our behalf instead of DIRECTLY ACTING on our petitions clearly shows that they don't have intrinsic power on their own to grant or deny our requests. That function is reserved to God alone. Nevertheless, the scripture has no provision specifically prohibiting asking prayers from saints. So why, prohibit it? Are you greater than the bible? Isn’t that going beyond what was written? You are violating your sola scriptura credo.

Quote from: Redge23 The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

Therefore, you yourself admitted that saints CAN PRAY TO GOD on our behalf. If that is the case, what’s all the fuss? I don't know why you reject the idea of asking prayers from saints when in fact you yourself agree that saints do pray to God for people here on earth! You are caught by your own contradiction.

Redge23 So why waste your time praying direct to a saint who does not have God’s full supernatural power to answer your prayer in the first place-

Kapatas

Because prayers of righteous men have powerful effect. (cf. James 5:16) And that God listens to the prayers of the righteous. (cf. 1 Peter 3:12) Also because the scriptures states that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN. (cf. 1 Tim 2:1) Definitely that includes saints.

Redge23 and who probably will not even hear or pick up your prayer anyway since the chances of that saint being tuned into your specific prayer at a specific time are probably a million to one.

Kapatas

How do you know? Perfected spirits of saints are no longer restrained by physical laws of nature. Considering their strong bond with the church, definitely wherever they are, saints are thinking of their struggling and suffering brothers left here on earth. Just like St. Paul said, ”when we were separated from you for a little while - not in our thoughts, of course but only in body…”(cf. 1 Th 2:17) In what way they can help people here on earth? Through prayer.

Redge23 When Jesus was walking in the New Testament – He specifically told us that we are to pray direct to God the Father if we have any specific needs that must be met. There is not one verse that I am aware of where He told us that we could also pray direct to dead saints.

Kapatas

If Christ is so against asking prayers to saints, then why Christ didn’t make any statement specifically prohibiting it? This is aside from the fact that Christ didn’t make any statements that prayer should ONLY BE DIRECTED TO GOD.

Redge23 If God the Father wanted this possibility as an option, then I believe Jesus would have specifically told us so in the New Testament – but He did not!

Kapatas

Actually, God considers that possibility which is clearly demonstrated when St. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote that “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN. (cf. 1 Tim 2:1)

Redge23 WHAAAAAT You'll do that if I can? Supposedly I can't find a text that prohibits praying to the saints, if you have the text and if you seek to enlighten me and the people reading this thread, then you in now sweat would have quoted it immediately. Truth is, you don't have that text to prove it that is why you are using this no-brainer kind of alibi!

Kapatas

It’s not an alibi. It’s an effective strategy to stanch your deceptive argumentation anchored on the assumption that “God prohibits praying to saints,” when in fact you don’t have any verses to support it. Di ba natigilan ka?

Give me verses which states that God prohibits praying to the saints. If you can do that, I will give the verses you are looking for.

Redge23 But let me quote it to you anyway! 1. “When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you.” (Deuteronomy 18:9) 2. “Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.” (Leviticus 19:31) 3. “And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people.” (Leviticus 20:6) 4. So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;(1 Chronicles 10:13) 5.And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living? (Isaiah 8:19 )

Kapatas

Misquotation at its best. Everyone knows that we, catholics don’t resort to black arts, witchcraft and occultism when praying to our saints. It is too much a stretch of imagination to associate asking prayer to saints to necromancy since we don’t have mediums or psychics or witches. Its bordering on the delusional.

Redge23 Lastly, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were already dead when these passages were written, but GOD did not allow his people to pray to the them. So even if you may will argue that the saints are ALIVE, it still would not work because these passages bars living people from inquiring to those who have died physically, otherwise God would have put an exemption.

Kapatas

We are not inquiring on saints. We don’t use mediums and psychics when we pray to saints. BTW, Asking for prayers and inquiring are two different things.

That’s why I find your statements preposterous and absurd. You are really trying hard pushing your own twisted understanding of the catholic faith. Sadly for you, we know better.

Redge23 Another misquotation! Where in this passage do we see that the prayers they have is the prayer of intercession?

Kapatas

It is an intercession prayer because saints in heaven are already saved. So for whom are their prayers? To the people of God here on earth! The bible states that if you see your brother committed a sin that does not lead to death, pray for him and God will forgive him. (cf. 1 John 5:16f) That's intercession. Since you already admitted that saints can pray for us, therefore, saints can intercede.

Redge23 And just a "heads up", I did not claim that the saints can NEVER pray at all! Rather, they cannot intercede!

Kapatas

Praying for others is an act of intercession. That's what saints do.

Redge23 Again: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.Ezekiel 14:20

Kapatas

That verse only shows us that no man can save other man because it is God who do the act of saving. But the text doesn't say that intercession of saints is not possible.

You already admitted that saints pray for people here on earth.

The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

You said that yourself. That's intercession.

Redge23 Imitating THEIR faith is different from imitating THEM! We are to emulate the kind of faith that came from GOD rather than the person who possesses it! Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

Kapatas

Faith comes from God in the sense that it is a product of grace, but faith is also integrated in the person. You can't say you imitate the faith of St. Paul while rejecting his person. If you imitate his faith, you will imitate his actions, his attributes, character, thinking, and way of living.

Heb 6:12
so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Be IMITATORS OF THOSE who through their faith and patience inherit the promises. The bible clearly teaches the imitation of saints.

Redge23 This faith is of divine origin (Romans 10:17). It is not something that came from the saints themselves, rather it was handed down to them. see the difference? That is why the bible was not wrong when it said:

Kapatas

And who said that faith originates from saints themselves?

Faith is indeed of divine origin. (cf. Phil 1:29) But faith is integrated with the person who lived that faith. So imitating the faith of the person will mean imitating aspects of that person: attributes, character, way of living, etc. That is why the author of the Letter to the Hebrews encourages Christians to be imitators of those who have inherit the promise.

Hebrew 6:12
so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Redge23 1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. Kapatas WE are to imitate God's holiness rather than imitate humans!

But no one has seen God. So how can you imitate his holiness? From his handiworks. (cf. Rm 1:20; Psalms 19:1) That includes the saints whose holiness are manifestations of the holiness of God. So imitating the lives of holy saints, like St. Peter and Paul, is in a way, imitating the holiness of God.

Redge23 Key word: Hermeneutics!!! You have missed the message that Paul was trying to drive out! Paul said we are to imitate him as he imitate Christ. This means that if we obey the Lord's will, we are not really imitating Pau, rather the Messiah!

Kapatas

But the point here is that, St. Paul encourages christians to IMITATE HIM. So clearly the bible teaches imitations of saints. Whether in the process, we imitate christ, is another issue. St. Paul is very explicit in his message, we have to be imitators of him, since he is a saint, so it is very clear that the bible supports imitation of saints.

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Be imitators of me [St. Paul]. Thats the imitation of saints for you.

Redge23 I respect them... but we are not taught to develop false loyalty. Paul himself made emphasis on that. Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Imagine Paul the Apostle himself taught the church to reject him and angels if they teach false gospels!

Kapatas

Who says that we have to develop false loyalty to saints? I think you should cut out those strawmans of yours because it doesn't really help your position. You have yet to show me verses which explicitly states that saints should not be imitated. So concentrate on that first.

Redge23 I don't wonder why romanists still defend homosexual and pedophile priests...they are blinded with false loyalty!

Kapatas

As if there are no pedophiles and homosexual fundie baptist pastors. there are many sexual abuse cases on your group that is mostly "swept under the rug" for fear of the maniacal pastor and not hurting your church.talking about blind loyalty. lolz.

Redge23 Hebrews 13:7 says Remember your leaders...imitate their faith. Nothing in there saying that we are to imitate our leaders

Kapatas

How about this:

Hebrew 6:12
so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Now its your turn, show me a verse from the bible explicitly stating that we should not imitate saints.

Redge23 Would the pedophile and sodomite priests that you have? Now tell me you can separate the persona from the kind of faith they have.

Kapatas

Imitating erring members is very different from imitating saints. You're confused. You are pushing for the former while the latter is taught explicitly by the bible. In the imitation of saints, you imitate the saints' positive qualities, their commendable attributes and character, and their holy manner of living. What's wrong with that?

If parents are the models of their children, saints like the Blessed Virgin, St. Joseph, St. Peter and St. Paul, people who have inherited the promise, are models for christians.

Redge23 The Logic in you paradigm: A. The bible tells me to imitate my leaders to please GOD B. Rev. John believes in the bible but he is is gay. C. Therefore i have to be both bible believer and gay to please GOD FAIL! You are left with no choice but to believe the bible and be gay at the same time because you are incapable of separating the faith to the person.

Kapatas

You have it all wrong. What I'm saying is that we have to imitate the saints especially their virtues and way of life, saints being people who have shown exemplary virtues and who have led a life of holiness and sanctity. You don't imitate what is bad. You imitate what is good.

1 Thessalonian 5:21-22
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Redge23 Philippians 4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. Paul was talking about what the church in Philippi learned, received, heard and seen in him that originated from GOD! Paul has no claim on the things that he has!

There is no question that every good thing comes from God. That is a non-issue.

Kapatas

The issue here is that St. Paul admonished the church in Philippi to do what the christians there have LEARNED, RECEIVED, HEARD, and SEEN from St. Paul. That's imitation of saints straight from the apostle's mouth. St. Paul act as a role model to christians in Philippi. St. Paul wanted christians to EMULATE the examples that he set before them. That's imitation.

Redge23 Acts 20:24 But I put no value on my life, if only at the end of it I may see the work complete which was given to me by the Lord Jesus, to be a witness of the good news of the grace of God.

Kapatas

But nowhere in the verse we can find St. Paul saying that we should not imitate saints. If you are so against the practice of imitating saints, then at least produce biblical texts which clearly supports your position. Up until now, you have yet to give us those verses.

Redge23 If you believe that Christ is the first model of Christians, but next to him, there are saints. Why would you settle for second best? Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man

Kapatas

We are not settling for the second best because it is not an "either or" proposition, wherein a christian has to choose between saints or Christ. Saints are not competing with Christ. Saints are not incompatible with Christ. The reality is that, christians can be imitators of Christ and saints at the same time.

Redge23 Exactly my point! Yeshua ALONE is man's mediator to GOD. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Kapatas

We believe in the text. That's why all prayers still have to go to Christ in recognition of that truth, and that includes prayers of saints. Even Virgin Mary's intercessory prayers still have to go to Christ. Christ being mediator between God and men doesn't prevent his followers to mediate on one another, since in the final analysis, all their prayers whether for themselves or for others are still directed to Christ. It is not as if saints can ACT DIRECTLY on the petition. The fact that they have to pray on our behalf to God in Christ's name testifies that Christ is indeed the mediator between God and men. Virgin Mary and the saint's mediatorship is depended on the mediatorship of Christ.

St. John said that if ever one saw his brother commit a sin that doesn’t lead to death, he can pray for that erring brother and God will forgive him. [cf. 1 John 5:16] That’s mediation. A brother praying for another brother is a form of mediation. Does it violate Christ as one mediator between God and men? No, for the simple reason that ALL PRAYERS are still directed to Christ.

CCC#970

“Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.” “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”

Christ’s mediatorship doesn’t exclude his followers to share in it, just like Christ’s priesthood which is shared by his ministers and faithful and God’s goodness which is not confined to God alone but rather manifested to his creatures. This is demonstrated by the fact that although Christ is the one mediator between God and men, he wanted his disciples and followers to share in his mediatorship:

1 Tim 2:1
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,

Christians are encouraged to intercede, to become a sort of secondary mediators for all men, working and cooperating with Christ.

Redge23 It seems that you have gone away from you romanist faith, as if you didn't really believe that you elevate Mary to a position that only belongs to Christ

Kapatas

It seems that you're out of your mind. Virgin Mary and the saints don't directly act on the petition but rather refer our petition to God thru prayer. It testifies that there is a higher being than the saints who deal with the petitions, and that is God. Therefore, your baseless accusation that we elevate Virgin Mary to a position belonging alone to Christ is unfounded and irresponsible. We elevate Virgin Mary and gave her honor but not in a way that surpasses Christ. BTW, we don't elevate her because of caprice, but rather because God Himself elevated the Blessed Mother among women, by entrusting to her the role of Mother of the Messiah. So if ever we honor Virgin Mary, it is because God honor her first! [cf. Luke 1:28]

I just wonder why you hate someone whom God Himself loved. Those I know who hate whom God has loved are the enemies of God. Maybe you are one of those.

Redge23 St. Germanus of Constantinople († 733) says: "Nobody can achieve salvation except through thee ... O Most Holy One ... Nobody can receive a gift of Grace except through thee ... O Most Chaste One" (Or. 9, 5. Lesson of the Office of the Feast)

Kapatas

We have no problem with that since nowhere in the text we can find stating that Virgin Mary is GOD. The statement of the venerable saint should be understood together with Virgin Mary’s unique RELATIONSHIP with Christ, our savior. Virgin Mary, in obedience to God, conceived and gave birth to the messiah. If you accept Christ as savior, then in the process, you also affirm that salvation can be found through Virgin Mary since she bring forth Jesus to the world. Her blessed womb serves as sanctuary of Jesus, our salvation, for nine months. In a way, salvation enters the world through her.

It is no different when the scriptures stated that "salvation comes from Jews." [cf. John 4:22] Does it mean Jews replaced Christ as savior? No. It only means that God chose Israel as the starting point wherein salvation shall be preached throughout all nations.

The problem enters when you try to isolate Virgin Mary from her exalted relationship with Jesus, just like what you are doing. Without Christ, it is so awkward and erroneous to say that salvation can be achieved through her. What had she done to deserve that? But all becomes clear when her exalted relationship with Christ is considered. That's why the Church is correct when it teaches that all devotions to the Blessed Mother originate from her relationship with her son, Jesus.

Redge23 St. Jerome says: "By a woman the whole world was saved" (cf. Tertullian, De carne Christi 17).

Kapatas

That is true considering Virgin Mary’s role in salvation history. She agreed to God’s plan of saving humanity by conceiving the messiah. So through her obedience and trust of the Lord, she becomes an instrument of salvation of humanity. But again, all of this should be understood together with her relationship with Jesus, the Saviour. Isolating Virgin Mary from this reality will only result to confusion just like you are in right now.

Redge23 St. Bernard of Clairvaux Claimed: "The sinner that ventures directly to Christ may come with dread and apprehension of his wrath; but let him only employ the mediation of the Virgin with her Son and she has only to show that Son the breasts that gave him suck and his wrath will immediately be appeased.- Catholic Layman (July, 1856).

Kapatas

It refers to a sincere repentant sinner asking the Virgin Mary to intercede for him to Christ. The sinner can ask forgiveness directly to Christ if he feels like it. Or go to Virgin Mary and ask her to intercede for him with the ultimate intention of asking forgiveness to Christ. It is Lord that forgives the sinner, not Virgin Mary. Nowhere in the text we can find stating that Virgin Mary is the one that forgives sins or she is God.

Redge23 You're starting to sound like a Baptist. Amen!!!

Kapatas

Sounding like baptist? Not really, but I rather I sound more like a catholic. That is what the Catholic Church teaches for 2,000 years. Christ is the savior and not Virgin Mary, that's why we don't have prayers asking the Blessed Mother "to save us" but rather "to pray for us". How come you don't know?

Redge23 But your religion teaches this: And may I quote St. Bernard of Clairvaux again: "The sinner that ventures directly to Christ may come with dread and apprehension of his wrath; but let him only employ the mediation of the Virgin with her Son and she has only to show that Son the breasts that gave him suck and his wrath will immediately be appeased. - Catholic Layman(July, 1856).

Kapatas

What's wrong with that? Does it teach that Virgin Mary is GOD? What the venerable saint had said was that Virgin Mary's intercession was very powerful, testifying to what the scriptures have stated: "the prayers of a righteous man have a powerful effect." [cf. James 5:16]

Redge23 And who is in the position to determine who is a true roman catholic and not? You?

Kapatas

Well, between us two, I'm more credible to determine who is a genuine catholic or not. Why? Because I'm a catholic myself. A cradle catholic to be exact. Unlike you who is a baptist, posing as a credible determiner of genuine and fake catholics. Give me a break. Lolz

Redge23 Sir I quoted a genuine roman catholic document from the works of St. Bernard himself. It was not an anti-catholic document that you might count against me so in stead of whining, why don't you check the reference and see for your self? "The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.( St. Bernard, In Nativit. S. Mariae de Aquaeductu.)

Kapatas

Yeah, you've quoted St. Bernard but that's not the issue. The problem lies when you say that one should supposed to read that particular writing of the saint to be a genuine catholic. That logic is something that is bordering on the delusional. Do you mean to say that generations of catholics who lived and died prior to the publication of that particular document were fake catholics? See how fallacious your arguments are.

Redge23 On the contrary St. Bernard of Clairvaux claimed that Mary can MANIPULATE GOD. "The sinner that ventures directly to Christ may come with dread and apprehension of his wrath; but let him only employ the mediation of the Virgin with her Son and she has only to show that Son the breasts that gave him suck and his wrath will immediately be appeased.- Catholic Layman (July, 1856).

Kapatas

When the Blessed Virgin Mary was able to convince Christ to turn six stone jars of water into wine in a wedding in Cana [cf. John 2:1-11], do you mean Virgin Mary MANIPULATED CHRIST?

Christ loved his mother. The scriptures states that he is obedient to her.

Luke 2:51
And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.

Christ is obedient to his mother. So if for instance her Mother asked him to forgive a lowly repentant sinner, Christ will definitely grant the request considering that the request is not unreasonable at all and the one who is asking is her mother, whom he is obedient to as the scripture testifies. It's not manipulation. It is obedience whose foundation is love.

Redge23 We are taught in the church to be loyal to GOD alone. We respect, and love those whom GOD used to fulfill HIS will like Mary,Moses, Joshua, The Apostles etc.

Kapatas

Baloney. Actually you hated Virgin Mary's guts. You don't even call her BLESSED, which the scriptures stated a title to be bestowed unto her by succeeding generations from that time onward. [cf. Luke 1:48] You even degrade her by delegating her to the ordinary when the scriptures specifically calls her "Full of Grace" [cf. Luke 1:28] and "Blessed among Women". [cf. Luke 1:42] You even gave more importance to your pastors who were not even mentioned in the bible than the Blessed Virgin Mary.

C'mon, shows us HOW you gave importance and love to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Or maybe you are just doing lip service unto her?

Or perhaps you want to hear David Currie's testimony?

"I estimate that I have listened to more than four thousand sermons by evangelicals and fundamentalists. Since most of them were well over thirty minutes long, that means over two thousand hours of listening..., There were sermons centered on the lives of Hannah, Debra, Elizabeth, Rachel, Leah, Sarah, and Eve. Not once, however, did I sit through a sermon whose central subject was Mary!"[Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, David B. Currie, p. 129]

Now that's a nifty way of giving importance to Virgin Mary.

Redge23 We are not taught to abhor them. It seems to me that not praying to the saints is tantamount to hating them. Not at all.

Kapatas

You abhor Virgin Mary. It is so obvious in your actuations. You don't call her "Blessed", you even demonized her by associating her to Semiramis, Isis, or other obscure pagan gods. Well, if it is not abhorring then I don't know what is.

Redge23 After all, no where in the scripture says that Peter asked for Abraham's intercession.

Kapatas

Because not all things that happened were written down, that includes mental prayers of St. Peter. What is important is that spirits of saints are ALIVE, CONSCIOUS, and capable of PRAYING as testified by the scriptures [cf. Revelation 8:3-4] and by YOU:

Redge23 Post #10:
Even though that saint is up in heaven, this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

If saints are capable of praying on our behalf, then asking prayers from them is not useless.

Redge23 Weird! God entrusted Israel to Moses. How often do you pray to prophet then? Do you see how inconsistent you can get?

Kapatas

Why? Do I have to pray to each and every saints in heaven to prove my point? What I only need to prove is that asking prayers to saints is possible. I did just that. Even you yourself agreed to that:

Redge23 Post #10:
Even though that saint is up in heaven, this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

Oh di ba umamin ka?

Redge23 Hahaha!!! Who said that the dead are not conscious? Please quote a statement wherein I said that the dead are unconscious. I'll be waiting.

Kapatas

The verse in Psalm you've just quoted. It shows that you believe that the dead are not conscious. I even agreed with you but I showed you that although their physical body died and therefore not conscious, their souls were pretty much ALIVE and CONSCIOUS. They even KNOW what's happening on their surrounding, and even here on earth. [cf. Revelation 7:10-14; 19:1-3]

Redge23 I only quoted a text for you to realize that the dead(though its soul being conscious) cannot intercede.

Kapatas

How come? When you already admitted that the spirits of saints in heaven can pray directly to God on our behalf. Isn't that intercession?

Redge23 Post #10:
Even though that saint is up in heaven, this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

INTERCESSION:
1. Entreaty in favor of another, especially a prayer or petition to God in behalf of another.
2. Mediation in a dispute.
[http://education.yahoo.com/reference.../intercession]

You can't escape this one. You are caught by your own contradiction.

Redge23 That's what the Psalm means in Hebrew when it said "thoughts" perish! In fact I was shocked with your rebuttal as if I ever said anything concerning soul -sleep. Clearly it was your prejudgment.

Kapatas

I didn't contest the meaning of "thoughts" in hebrew so cut out those red herring of yours. I even agreed with you that the physical bodies of dead saints are indeed not conscious. The whole body of my rebuttals centered on the idea that although the physical bodies of departed saints were dead and not conscious, their spirits were ALIVE, AWARE, and even capable of PRAYING to God. What I did was simply sharing my belief. If for you that is prejudging then that's your problem.

Redge23 Where in revelations does it say that the prayers are for the people of God suffering here on earth.

Kapatas

Well, it requires common sense to find that. For you not to find it is quite shocking and very revealing. Spirits of saints were already saved and perfected. [cf. Hebrews 12:23] So for whom are their prayers? It is for their brothers who are struggling and suffering here on earth. Because saints though separated physically from their brothers in faith, are still united with them in spirit.

Colossians 2:5
For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

The saints, although absent physically, are united with the Church in spirit. So wherever they are, they are definitely thinking of their brothers and sisters here on earth, desiring what is good for the church and for the brothers in faith. If when they are alive here on earth they can pray for their brothers in sisters, then what constraints them from praying for their brothers? Even you admitted that spirits of saints in heaven can pray to God on our behalf.

Redge23 Post #10:
Even though that saint is up in heaven, this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

Why the change of heart right now? Alam mo ba ang tawag ng bible sa pabago-bago ng sinasabi?

Redge23 And I will show you a text that implicitly say the saints in heaven can't! Read: Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Kapatas

Where in the verse we can find that saints in heaven can't pray to their brothers here on earth? Where? I don't see it.

Redge23 I'll wait for your allusion in revelations as you claim that the saints were praying on behalf of those who were in earth.

Kapatas

I already did that. Or perhaps you wanted your own testimony regarding the matter:

Redge23 Post #10:
Even though that saint is up in heaven, this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

Isn't that enough?

Redge23 Doesn't it? Well, just so you know, this text is exactly the reason why Jews do not asks for their Patriarch's(Abraham, Isaac, Jacob...) intercession. If you are a seminarian, I hope you study the Tanakh because if you are going to read the entire Ezekiel 14, God warns that HE will put Israel to desolation and yet Noah, Daniel, and Job (being dead) cannot stop it. Now you're telling me it's got nothing to do with intercession and mediation? I am not over reading it....you are just not reading.

Kapatas

What's your proof that Ezekiel 14:20 is the reason why Jews don't ask for intercession? Don't make assertions like that without proofs. You should know better. Apparently you don't read your bible thoroughly. Jews themselves pray on behalf of long departed brothers. Case in point, Nehemiah.

Nehemiah 1:6
let thy ear be attentive, and thy eyes open, to hear the prayer of thy servant which I now pray before thee day and night for the people of Israel thy servants, confessing the sins of the people of Israel, which we have sinned against thee. Yea, I and my father's house have sinned.

Nehemiah is praying not only for himself but for his people and forefathers. But the bible states that his forefathers were already dead.

Nehemiah 2:3
I said to the king, "Let the king live for ever! Why should not my face be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lies waste, and its gates have been destroyed by fire?"

Nehemiah's forefathers were long dead. But that didn't prevented him to pray to God on their behalf. That's intercession. Surely, his forefathers wherever they are, were also praying to God on behalf of Nehemiah and still existing Israelites since intercession is part of their religious culture.

Redge23 Yes you did! How did you come up with a rebuttal that was trying to refute a soul-sleep doctrine when I did not even raise it to begin with?! You thought that all the while I was a proponent of soul-sleep when I quoted Psalm 146:4!

Kapatas

Actually you are the one who brought the issue of soul sleep. My arguments are focused on the reality that although the physical body of a person dies and therefore unconscious, their spirits are alive and conscious. That is not prejudgment but rather an effort to clarify things since when you quoted psalms 146:4, you are arguing that saints are DEAD and can't intercede. Its not my problem if you feel you're being tagged as one of the JWs since your doctrine is almost similar to them. Imagine, saints are dead. That's terrible.

Redge23 Hahahahah!!! Really? Did you mean that John the Baptist was only called Baptist after he was already baptizing people? Boy, I am not surprised why roman catholics are poor in hermeneutics. Matthew 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

Kapatas

The verse does not tells us that John has yet to baptise people when he preached in the desert. And even so, John was called the "baptist" precisely because of the work he was known for, BAPTIZING PEOPLE. Now, why you claim that you are a baptist and yet you don't even baptized people? Therefore, your self-proclaimed tagged is a misnomer.

Redge23 John is not yet baptizing people by this time and yet he is ALREADY called BAPTIST.

Kapatas

Precisely because that verse was written MANY YEARS AFTER the actual events described. So for purposes of clarification, St. Matthew addressees John with his title "baptist" as John is introduced in the Gospel in consideration of the WORK John was known for. The verse doesn't speak of John being called "the baptist" even before he gave his first baptismal ritual. It is not something like John was called "the baptist" immediately after he was born.

So why claim you are a baptist and yet you don't baptise people? Isn't that a misnomer?

Redge23 But its nice to know that now you recognise that Baptists alone are the ones ho can AUTHENTICALLY baptize. After all, you don't call your priests as baptists. That's a good development!

Kapatas

I don't recognized the validity of your group's baptism. To claim that I admitted that your group can authentically baptize is a sign of desperation. Dream on.

The 11 disciples were the ones originally directed by Christ to preach the Gospel and baptize people [cf. Matthew 28:19-20] and yet, nowhere in the bible they were called as baptists. That's why the use of the title baptist among your group is unbiblical.

Redge23 I'm sorry but I NEVER PUT A LINE IN YOUR MOUTH. I'm not like some people I know who forms their rebuttal full of strawman. Again I only quoted St. Bernard. "... that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation." ( St. Bernard, In Nativit. S. Mariae de Aquaeductu.)

Kapatas

The statements of the venerable saint should be understood together with Virgin Mary's relationship with Christ, the savior, the source of hope, grace and salvation. If through the Virgin Mary and no other, Christ enters the world, then indeed, it is through the Blessed Mother that all hope, grace and salvation can be found. The problem with you is that you are isolating Virgin Mary from her son. That's why you are confused.

Redge23 Your religion teach that it is through Mary we will obtain every hope, every grace, and ALL salvation. Kapatas, please....

Kapatas

Only because of Virgin Mary's RELATIONSHIP with her son, Christ our Savior, because through her and no other, Christ enters the world.

Redge23 And yet why don't we see in the scripture ancient Israel ever prayed to Moses despite him being Physically dead yet spiritually alive? Did Peter and the rest of the NT saints ever prayed to Isaac, or Joel or Jeremiah?

Kapatas

But Nehemiah prayed to God in behalf of his departed ancestors. That's intercession. [cf. Nehemiah 1:6; 2:2-3]

Redge23 Still an Assumption...you have no biblical basis because if what you claim is true, then Paul is not happy in heaven because of the suffering of GOD's children.

Kapatas

Who says that St. Paul is not happy in heaven? Did I say that? What I said was that St. Paul, wherever he is, always thinks of the church. when we were separated from you for a little while - not in our thoughts, of course but only in body - [cf. 1 Thessalonian 2:17] Also, the church is always in the heart of St. Paul, “You are always in my heart…” [cf. Philippians 1:7]

Because even though he is absent physically, he is united with the church in spirit.

Colossians 2:5
For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

If St. Paul is still united with the Church spiritually even though he is absent physically, and that he always thinks of the church, and the church is always in his heart, then praying for his suffering and struggling brother to God is not a far fetched idea. It is a reality.

2 Thessalonian 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfil every good resolve and work of faith by his power,

St. Paul always prays for his brothers. If St. Paul and his fellow missionaries always pray for their brothers while here on earth, WHAT PREVENTS THEM IN PRAYING FOR THEIR BROTHERS LEFT HERE WHEN THEY ARE IN HEAVEN?

Even you agreed that saints pray to God on our behalf:

Redge23 Post #10:
Even though that saint is up in heaven, this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

Need I say more?

Redge23 Just to think of how roman catholics high-jacked the name of Chrsit as an excuse to kill jews and muslims in the Crusades- how roman catholics through MALLEUS MALIFICARUM and protestants killed whomsoever the believe as witches would definitely put Paul in grief. Then heaven is no longer a happy place for the saints just the bible says it is.

Kapatas

This is clearly a red herring. Jews and Muslims were killed during that time because they also kill christians. Those are the time of WAR. In war, there are those who will kill and be killed. Even God directed Israel to wage war against their idolatrous neighboring kingdoms. Also, capital punishment is considered a norm in judicial system during that time. It is only now that capital punishments are abolished when judicial system got refined. Even so, it is the catholic church that convinced the government of the Philippines to abolish death penalty, not your baptist group. So live with it.

Redge23 First off, I already quoted the entirety. I'm dissappointed that instead of checking it, you just resort to a lazy response of "I don't buy that because you chopped the whole text". Perhaps I have to get my self used to it. hahaha

Kapatas

Yeah. I got used to your evasion tactic. Instead of explaining your admission that saints in heaven pray to God on our behalf, you opted to stay silent on it:

Redge23 Post #10:
Even though that saint is up in heaven, this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

I pointed it to you on my previous post and yet you purposely evaded it. Why? Oh why?

Redge23 You asked for it: 5. And likewise in our own day, Mary, with the ever merciful affection so characteristic of her maternal heart, wishes, through her efficacious intercession with God, to deliver her children from the sad and grief-laden troubles, from the tribulations, the anxiety, the difficulties, and the punishments of God's anger which afflict the world because of the sins of men. Wishing to restrain and to dispel the violent hurricane of evils which, as We lament from the bottom of Our heart, are everywhere afflicting the Church, Mary desires to transform Our sadness into joy. The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.( St. Bernard, In Nativit. S. Mariae de Aquaeductu.)

Kapatas

I answered this already. This should be understood together with Virgin Mary's unique and exalted RELATIONSHIP with Christ. Isolating Virgin Mary from Christ will only result to confusion and delusion.

Redge23 Hahahaha...Rumblings of an agitated man. Really? Have you ever asked Elijah and Moses' intercession the way that you ask St. Josephs' ? Are your members ever informed that they can were to ask Elijah's intercession? I have never heard a priest taught us in various catechisis that a saint who was prophet Habakuk can actually intercede for me. O wait! I can hardly recall a day dedicated for Habakuk. Don't you realize it? The Prima Facie case is your since you claimed that we are to ask the intercessions of the saints.

Kapatas

Why? Is asking prayers to saints the ONLY way of giving them importance? The Church designated special days in honor of these saints.

Elijah's feast day is July20:

"In Western Christianity, the Prophet Elijah is commemorated as a saint with a feast day on 20 July by the Roman Catholic Church"[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah]

Moses feast day is September 4. For those saints with no specific feast days, we dedicated November 1 as All Saints Day. Surely that includes Habakkuk.

Now that's our way of giving them importance. How about your group? How do you give importance to said saints? C'mon, show it to us. Give us the specifics. Let's compare who gave saints the higher importance: The Catholic Church or your baptist group.

Redge23 Hah? Hindi ako nagsinungaling sa mga posts ko dito. Baka ikaw. Ikaw lang naman yung marunong mambintang di ba? Nasa inyo ang burden of proof. Kung hindi mo pa alam yan, basahin mo ang title ng thread na ito.

Kapatas

Nagsisinungaling ka. Sabi mo hindi namin binibigyan ng importansiya sina Elias at Moses. Pinakita ko sayo na we even go as far as designating a specific feast day in their honor. Kaya bukung-buko na nagsisinungaling ka. Hinahamon nga kita na magkumparahan tayo kung sino ang nagbibigay sa mga nasabing santo ng mas malaking importansiya: Yung Simbahang Katoliko or yung grupo mo. Ano na? Mukhang tahimik ka sa hamon kong eto.

Redge23 Huh? Are you serious?!!! HAHAHAAH... Why should I when we don't venerate saints the way you and your ancient fellow pagans do?

Kapatas

That's why I'm challenging you. Let's compare who gave said saints greater importance: the Catholic Church or your group? You are silent about this? Why?

Redge23 We don't need to have a celebration day for saints because we are taught to celebrate God every day. This is how we pay respect to the saints who have gone before us- to posses the kind of love, faith, hope that they have to glorify GOD.

Kapatas

Baloney. The issue here is how you gave saints importance. Giving importance to God is another issue. So c'mon, give us the specifics how your group gave importance to saints. What have you done to them?

Redge23 Hahahah,...funny how Other saints have multiple days of celebration for their honor while Malachi and others only have one. Hahahah How noticeable are romanists trademark for bieng inconsistent! I'm not surprised!

Kapatas

At least we designate a day in their honor, unlike your group who have done nothing and yet has the gall to criticize those who have done much. Isn't that pachydermic to the highest order?

St. Paul admonished christians to honor saints, just like Efaproditus who nearly died for the sake of the Gospel:

Philippians 2:29-30
29 So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men,

30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me.

If we are to honor people who nearly died for the sake of Christ, then how much more we have to honor saints who have died for the sake of the gospel? Surely, designating a feast day in their honor is a way of giving importance and honor to them right? We honor Rizal on December 30 and Bonifacio on November 30. If we did that to honor heroes, then it is only right to designate a feast day in honor of saints, who are heroes of the faith.

Now, I asked you, what have you done to the saints? Let's compare who gave them the most importance.

Redge23 I have no idea of that song. So much for your fondness on that Satanic American Pie.

Kapatas

I just heard that song. Hearing and quoting a song against a heretic doesn't necessarily entails fondness of the song. You’re confused.

Redge23 Then why did Abraham told the richman that Moses and the prophets were on earth to preach for his family instead of offering to God an intercession for their salvation? Ah! Because Abraham knew that there was nothing he can do. Thank God for Abraham who trust GOD's judgement!

Kapatas

Delusions. Abraham only said that the rich man's brothers, if they don't believe the teachings of Moses and the prophets, then nothing can convince them. Nowhere in the text can we find Abraham specifically stating that intercession is not possible.

Redge23 Really, I didn't? I think I just over estimated you sir KAPATAS. I thought that I have already made my self clear if what I believe that saints in heaven are ALIVE, CONSCIOUS and upon quoting Luke 16 where Abraham knew that Moses and the prophets were on earth would already suffice the common sense in you that I knew that saints are well AWARE of what is happening here on earth. . I'm sorry. It's nice to know you are fond of American Pie though.

Kapatas

Yeah. You made yourself perfectly clear that saints are ALIVE, CONSCIOUS, AND CAN PRAY TO GOD ON OUR BEHALF.

Redge23 Post #10:
Even though that saint is up in heaven, this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

Therefore, you yourself admitted that intercession of saints are possible. Why all the fuss? Tapos na dapat debate di ba? Umamin ka na. lolz.

Redge23 You said: "Saul didn't just asked help from prophet Samuel"...Hang on! You're not reading your bible! 1 Samuel 28 9And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. So you mean to say that Saul's ascent to seek guidance from the departed prophet was right and the only reason why it was wrong was simply because he used divination? Be careful with your answer.

Kapatas

Saul is wrong because he resorted to necromancy. What is necromancy? It is the act of conjuring up and communicating with the dead for purposes of determining the future.

NECROMANCY
1. The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2. Black magic; sorcery.
3. Magic qualities.
[http://education.yahoo.com/reference...ry/necromancy]

Surely, no Catholic conjures up and communicate with saints through black arts in order to determine the future, right? Your sense of analogy leaves much to be desired. It's horrible.

Redge23 No prohibition? Is not Ezekiel enough for you? Are you more intelligent that Moses the first Jewish Rabbi who did not ask for the Patriarchs' intercession?

Kapatas

Definitely, there is no prohibition on the intercession of saints. The verse in Ezekiel only states that no person can save other person because it is God that saves. Nowhere in the text can we find that intercession is prohibited. Nehemiah even prayed to God on behalf of his dead forefathers. That's intercession. Don't pretend that you are greater than Nehemiah.

Redge23 or Jeremiah the prophet who wrote about praying directly to GOD in Jeremiah 33:3? Is God not enough for you? Oh wait! St. Bernard of Clairvaux says HE is not! To quote again: "The sinner that ventures directly to Christ may come with dread and apprehension of his wrath; but let him only employ the mediation of the Virgin with her Son and she has only to show that Son the breasts that gave him suck and his wrath will immediately be appeased.- Catholic Layman (July, 1856).St. Bernard of Clairvaux If Bernard of Clairvaux was only alive during Moses time, he would been stoned to death by the Jewish congregation! I'm enjoying every second of reading your rebuttals. I can see you bit by bit believing in SOLA SCRIPTURA. That's good so keep that up. hahahah

Kapatas

The statements of St. Bernard should be understood together with Virgin Mary's exalted RELATIONSHIP with Christ, the savior. Isolating the Blessed Mother from Christ will only lead to confusion, just like what’s happening to you.
BTW, I don’t believe in sola scriptura because unlike you, I’m not easily fooled by the likes of Martin Luther, the inventor of that heresy.

Redge23 Of course saints(who have not experienced physical death) CAN PRAY TO GOD on our behalf! I pray for my dad, my mom, my sister, my church, my pastor, etc. Do you believe that sainthood can only be attained after physical death?

Kapatas

But you said this:

Redge23 Post #10:
Even though that saint is up in heaven, this person still has no power on his own to make anything happen for you. The best they could do for you is to pray direct to God.

Surely, the saints you are referring there are those not here on earth, right? Or I misreading it?

Redge23 Hah! You keep on quoting Paul while he was still alive on earth! Typical faulty exegesis of romanists! Too bad you saints are still suffering with your church while our is already happy in Christ.hahahah

Kapatas

What difference does it make, considering that ALL, especially the saints are ALIVE as far as God is concerned:

Luke 20:38
So the Lord isn't the God of the dead, but of the living. This means that everyone is alive as far as God is concerned.

Suffering saints in heaven? Saints thinking of their struggling brothers here on earth doesn't necessarily mean they suffer. Christ is in heaven. Surely, he always thinks of his church here on earth. Does that mean Christ is also suffering? Give me a break.

Redge23 The instruction was clear! Luke 11 1And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3Give us day by day our daily bread. 4And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. Apparently because Christ taught HIS apostles to pray directly to the Father, all other way of prayer is invalid.

Kapatas

Nowhere in the verse can we find Jesus stating that all prayers should be directed to God ALONE and that, PRAYING TO or FOR THE OTHERS is prohibited. And BTW, we catholics prayed the "Our Father" more than you and your group.

Redge23 Again you are quoting a text were Paul's and the people whom he delivers to are all alive! hahahaha

Kapatas

Because death doesn't matter for a christian. One's relationship with the church is not terminated at death. ALL are alive as far as God is concerned. [cf. Luke 20:38] And that those who believe in Christ [saints], even tough they die will again live. [cf. John 11:25] If that is so, then saints can pray to God on our behalf just like what they do when they are still here on earth.

Redge23 I already quoted them, you simply chose to ignore them. To Tita Emmy and Mj, if you are reading this post I want you to see how apologists/fanatics in your recent religion flunk textual exegisis. Read his every respose and ponder on them. You were never wrong on leaving roman paganism!

Kapatas

No, you don't. Nowhere in the verses you've posted we can find God prohibited the intercession of saints. On the contrary, I showed you verses proving the intercession of Saints. You are the one ignoring those verses. [cf. 1 John 5:16; Revelation 8:3-4; Nehemiah 1:5-6; 2:2-3] I feel sorry to your tita because she got bamboozled by a cultic group claiming they are the lost descendants of the early church. lolz

Redge23 What a big lie! Does this occur to you that you are only asking for them to pray for you? No, you don't know what you are talking about. You'd rather resort to imploring Michael's defense than God the creator of ALL who disposes him. BLASPHEMERS! Repent! Saint Michael Prayer Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in the day of battle. Be our safeguard against the wickedness and the snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray and do thou O Prince of the Heavenly Host, cast into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen

Kapatas

Why not? Christ himself availed the help of angels. Don’t tell me you are stronger than Christ.

Luke 22:43
And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

Matthew 4:11
Then the devil left Jesus, and angels came to help him.

Christ was assisted by angels. It that is so, then asking prayers and help from angels is not useless. They do help. It is not an either or proposition, since angels are not incompatible or against God. Asking help from them doesn't mean you no longer believed in God. Your logic is so horrendous, it can't stand to serious scrutiny.

Redge23 On the CONTRARY, the Scripture says: Psalm 59:1 Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me. Psalm 69:18 Draw nigh unto my soul, and redeem it: deliver me because of mine enemies.

Kapatas

We have prayers that are direct to God. Like the Our Father. We pray lots of it. But we also pray for the intercession of saints. St. Paul even asked his brothers in faith to pray for him to God. St. Paul should have prayed directly to God, why would he asked his brothers in faith?

Hebrews 13:18-19
18 Keep on praying for us. We are sure we have a clear conscience, for we want to do the right thing at all times.

19 And I beg you all the more to pray for me, so that God will end me back to you the sooner.

Keep on praying for us. And I beg you all the more to pray for me. That's intercession for you straight from St. Paul's mouth. Since unity with the Church does not terminate at death, then christians, whether here on earth or in heaven, are still praying and supporting each other. Unlike in your group, when one is dead, he/she is forgotten.

Redge23 Hah! Gay or Pedophile Pastors head straigh to jail and are disfellowshipped.

Kapatas

Many raped cases were not pursued for fear of your maniac pastors or for fear of hurting your church. A pastor accused of raped can deny allegations and continue with his ministry. Since you don't have hierarchy in your church, pastor can't be investigated or be punished unless that pastor admitted for his crime or got caught red handed with his immoral acts.

Redge23 Unlike your sodomite priests who despite proven to have erred are still allowed to retain priesthood in your desperation to cope the dramatic decrease of you recruits.

Kapatas

Erring priests make up a small percentage of the catholic priesthood so don't exaggerate things. And those erring priests were given disciplinary actions. The Church don't condone the act. The Church even take care of the victims. Di ba ang bait simbahan namin? Our church in general, bear the responsibility of taking care of the victims of its erring members. How about your group? What does your group have done to the victims of your maniac pastors?

Redge23 There is no difference with sodomite pastors who have gone from us and yours. They are all misfits. The difference is in the way how we and you exctract them. Ours are banned. Yours aren't. BIG BIG difference! No wonder why romanist population are drastically decreasing for the past few decades. I am not surprised!

Kapatas

It is because sinners that they are, the church is still considering the possibility that they be redeemed and change their ways. What's wrong with that?

Redge23 You forgot to read the latter part of the Hebrew 6:12. Faith and patience are fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT (Gal 5: 20-23) therefore imitating the holy qualities given to the saints is as good as saying imitating GOD! Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Kapatas

We are not talking about the origin of the saint's holy qualities. Red herring. What we are talking here is whether it is right to imitate saints. The bible is very clear on that:

1 Cor 11:1
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Heb 6:12
so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Philippians 4:9
What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.

2 Thessalonians 3:8-9

8 we did not eat any one's bread without paying, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you.

9 It was not because we have not that right, but to give you in our conduct an example to imitate.

The bible is explicitly urging Christians to IMITATE saints. And here is the verse which shows that Christians indeed IMITATED the saints:

1 Thessalonians 1:6
And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with joy inspired by the Holy Spirit;

The christians in Tesalonika imitated St. Paul. The verse also shows that they imitated the Lord. That is why it is possible to imitate saints and the Lord, since there is no “either or” between the two. One can imitate the saints and the Lord at the same time since the two are not incompatible with each other. Notice that the word imitate in the text is in the past tense. Meaning, the imitation of saints is a teaching demonstrated in the bible. Imitation of saints is a doctrine practiced by christians. That's why we catholics imitate saints. That's what christians do. Now, if you and your group don't practiced the imitation of saints, it only mean one thing: you are all fakes! lolz

Admit it, you’ve got busted in this. You have yet to shows us verses which says that we should not imitate saints.

Redge23 The Prophet Jeremiah preached against false trust. Sadly, roman catholics do that. They would dare to ask for Michael's help rather than GOD's. This angers GOD and the angles as well as the apostles are well aware of this.

Kapatas

What’s wrong on trusting God’s ministers and disciples? Does it mean that if I trust them, I no longer trust God? Your argument is rubbish. It is proffering an “either or” proposition that is not supported by the bible. Christ himself said that listening to his disciples means listening to Christ himself, and rejecting them will mean rejecting Christ.

Luke 10:16
"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Thus, if one listens and trust God’s disciples, that person also listens and trust the Lord. There is no “either or” here since the saints are God’s disciples, whom God approved and trusted:

1 Thessalonians 2:4
but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not to please men, but to please God who tests our hearts.

If God approved and trusted St. Paul who is a saint, why distrust saints? Are you greater than God?

Redge23 Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Kapatas

Misquotation. I will show you why. That verse tells us that a man whose heart DEPARTS from the Lord and put his whole trust to a mere mortal will be cursed. It shows what will happen to a man who instead of believing God, decided to believe man. Does the verse applicable to us catholics? No. Why? Because we trust the Lord and because we trust in the Lord, we also trust his servants, the saints as well. It is not as if we trusted God’s servants while we reject God.

That’s why it is a misquotation. Copied from your pastor who is clearly “kulang sa turo.” Do you know what will happen to those whom the bible calls “kulang sa turo?”

Kawikaan 5:23
Siya'y mamamatay sa kakulangan ng turo; at sa kadahilanan ng kaniyang pagkaulol ay maliligaw siya.

Ang kulang sa turo ay mamamatay. Kaya iwan mo na yang pastor mo. Wag kang kokpya sa kanya dahil kulang yan sa turo.

Redge23 Romanists have hyper veneration to the saints that they consider as only honoring. The following Bible passages reveals their idolatrous veneration.

Kapatas

We don’t worshipped saints as Gods. Saints are honored because the bible states that we should honor them:

Philippians 2:29-30
29 So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men,

30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me.

Men who nearly die or have died for the sake of Christ and the Gospel are to be honored. That’s why we catholics honor saints. We follow the teachings of the bible.

Redge23 The romanists say its ok but Peter whom they believe as their pope says otherwise: Acts 10: 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshiped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Kapatas

The verse is very explicit. The reason why St. Peter dissuade Cornelius from his actions is because he bowed down to the ground in front of St. Peter with the INTENTION OF WORSHIPPING him. That’s definitely a No-No.

But the bible clearly teaches that bowing down to the ground in front of a person doesn’t necessarily mean worshipping. Some do it to give honor, especially to men of God, like King David:

1 Kings 1:16
And Bath-sheba went down on her face on the earth before the king giving him honour. And he said, What is your desire?
Clearly, there is a type of bowing with the intention of giving honor, not worship. That’s what we do to our saints. We bow down to them not because we worshipped them as gods but rather to give them honor.

Redge23 The romanists say its ok but the Angel says the opposite: Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. How much more clearer can the the scripture get?

Kapatas

Another misquotation. The angel dissuade St. John in bowing before him because St. John’s intention in bowing is TO WORSHIP THE ANGEL. It is very explicit in the text. Indeed the scripture is very clear. Read it aloud yourself. Bowing before anyone with the intention of worshipping that person is a sin of idolatry. But if you bow only to give honor to that person, that is not wrong since the bible demonstrates that men of God, like King David are honored by men by bowing unto him. [cf. 1 Kings 1:16; 2 Samuel 9:6]

That’s why we honor our saints by bowing unto them. That’s the bible way of honoring men of God. Apparently you don’t do that. That’s why your practices are unbiblical.